loading 308. frustrated.. hitting the limits of rifle, or shooter?

[anothernewb]

Picked up a Savage Trophy Hunter XP a few years ago. I think basically it's a 11/111 package with a scope. basic plastic stock and accu-trigger.

Have been trying to work up loads for it and coming up with just plain blah. Starting to think that it's just a hunter - not a tight grouping gun. I see pictures all over with people shooting old wwII relics and other cheap entry guns that place these beautiful 1/2" or better all the time... I consistently turn in 1.5" to 2" groups - and that's it.

I've bought basic ammo, match ammo, super duper premium ammo, and basic components and super duper premium components.

Here's the funny part - everything groups about the same. from core lokts to ultra super duper gold medal match. from 150 grains to 175 military match...I've matched headstamps, water volumes, etc...

Here's some pictures of the average groups I get.

The upper plate is federal gold medal match 168 grain, the lower is 150 grain core lokt


Here's my best two targets:

42 grains 4064 with SMK 168 grainers 2.80 OAL (6 shots)


and 42.5 grains RL15 under the same bullet, and same length



the 4064 load is my best, but the two holes are nearly an inch apart.

I'm just at my wits end. what do I try adjusting - or am I being unrealistic. If the gun is just a good hunting gun and I shouldn't be pursuing touching holes, then so be it. but I have hit the limits of my understanding at this point. I shoot from a led sled. wait a minimum 60 seconds between shots...

gah....maddening. Maybe I should just stick to pistols. they're easier.

 

[Jim Watson]

Three shot groups will help the brag pictures a lot.
As will putting the rifle or ammo box on the target where it covers the wide shots before taking the picture. As will showing only the good pictures.

 

[Bart B.]

One 5-shot group tells you that 19 out of 20 of them will average somewhere between over one and a half times bigger to about two thirds as big.

Your rifle and ammo's accuracy is what the biggest groups are. Smallest groups happen only when all's perfect and no variables or all the variables mostly cancel each other out. It's easier to shrink the biggest groups than the smallest ones.

Ever wonder why the benchrest record for 5 shots at 100 yards is .0077" but the record aggregates comprising several 5- or 10-shot group's average size is about .200" and their biggest groups are around .300"?

What dies are you using?

 

[Grunt]

Might be in your targets too. Rather than using "side of the barn: sized targets, I prefer to use NRA 50' Smallbore Rifle targets instead. The smaller size (the 10 ring is maybe the diameter of a .22 bullet) of these targets forces me to stay focused on what I'm doing. Any small slip up, any lack of concentration, any act of screwing the pooch in my fundamentals is easily seen on the target. Aim small, miss small.

 

[strambo]

...
Have been trying to work up loads for it and coming up with just plain blah. Starting to think that it's just a hunter - not a tight grouping gun. I see pictures all over with people shooting old wwII relics and other cheap entry guns that place these beautiful 1/2" or better all the time... I consistently turn in 1.5" to 2" groups - and that's it.
...

First, most of these people are full of crap, almost no shooters can shoot 1/2 MOA 5 rounds or more groups all the time with any rifle nevermind a milsurp.

Second, you need to adjust your expectations. Your rifle is shooting very consistently and well within expectations for an entry level hunting rifle. I would be happy with the results you have posted. The last load shows good promise to be under MOA so I would pursue that and also ID the best off the shelf hunting loads.

To get better accuracy, it would need a new barrel and a new and properly bedded stock. This isn't the type of rifle that makes a good base for a precision build so it isn't worth the investment to upgrade IMO.

You nailed it at the end of your post, it is a good hunting rifle with consistency it looks like you can count on. Trying to make it into a one-hole paper puncher will drive you nuts.

 

[Txhillbilly]

First off,The Savage 11 package rifle is just an entry level hunting rifle,not a precision benchrest rifle. It wasn't designed to be a sub-moa rifle,and Savage would tell you if it shoots 1.5 moa there's nothing wrong with it.

With a couple changes,the rifle can shoot better. The factory stock and whatever bottom shelf scope that came on the rifle are just plain junk.
Change the stock to a good aftermarket stock that doesn't flex,and that supports the action well with a good bedding system,and then buy a good quality scope/base/and rings for it.
Then you will have a rifle that will shoot a lot better.

I own 9-10 Savage rifles,and none of them have a Savage stock on them,they all shoot really good.

 

[tarosean]

I see pictures all over with people shooting old wwII relics and other cheap entry guns that place these beautiful 1/2" or better all the time...

Just because its posted to the internet doesnt mean its true.

 

[natman]

Sounds like it's not the ammo.

Use better targets with a more consistent aiming point.

Give the barrel a good cleaning. Has the rifle been bedded?

Have you ever shot better than the 1.5" groups shown with another rifle?

 

[MtnCreek]

Three shot groups will help the brag pictures a lot.
As will putting the rifle or ammo box on the target where it covers the wide shots before taking the picture. As will showing only the good pictures.

^ What he said!

If it were me, taking it out of the lead sled and setting on front / rear bags would probably help.

 

[bpshooter13]

Good suggestions on stock upgrade. You also might try 178gr Hornady A-Max with that same 4064 powder, 42-43 grains. Experiment with bullet seating depth, try .003-.006 off the lands if your magazine permits. Get a comparator to ensure accuracy of seating depth.

 

[LeonCarr]

Front and Rear bags instead of the Lead Sled. Notice that no competitive benchrest shooters use a Lead Sled.

Targets with a more defined aiming point. I like the Benchrest Style targets with the one inch square above the circular scoring rings. Aim small, shoot small.

Three shot groups still provide feedback of your performance without excessively heating up the barrel.

Looks like nothing is wrong with your rifle or ammo. A better stock or better optics will help shrink your groups some, but try the above before pouring money into your rifle. If you still aren't satisfied after learning better bench shooting techniques, then go for better optics, stock, or barrel.

Just my .02,
LeonCarr

 

[Sunray]

Please reduce the size of your pictures.
Your rifle is a hunting rifle, not a target rifle. Consistent 1.5" to 2" groups with any hunting rifle is great. Outstanding with factory ammo. If the pie plates are at 100 yards and you're standing for the groups in the huge pictures, you're done. No match bullets for hunting anything but varmints though.
"...old W.W. II relics and..." They ain't relics. They're the basis of nearly every commercial hunting rifle. Anyway, as mentioned, most of 'em were not made for great accuracy. Some of 'em, like my 1903A4 Springfield and other 'sniper's rifles" will shoot one hole groups with the right ammo, but most will not. Some of 'em will have a hard time hitting your pie plate. They are great fun to shoot though.

 

[jmr40]

He is using a tiny aiming point drawn on the plates, there isn't anything wrong with his choice in targets.

Your stock is capable of shooting very small groups, no need to change it unless you just want to. On a dedicated target rifle a better stock might squeeze an extra .1 MOA out of the gun. You'll never notice on this rifle. A better scope might not be a bad idea. We have no idea about your shooting skills, this could be at least part of the problem.

I think the problem is likely the result of several factors combined. Have you let someone else shoot it and if so what type of results did they get. It looks like it has potential. It may just be a matter of finding a load it likes and working on your skills.

It is a hunting rifle, despite what some post on the internet there is no need to shoot more than 3 shots in a group. It will be the rare occasion to fire 2 shots at a game animal, let alone 3. Shooting 5 or more just heats up the barrel and will naturally increase group size. As a hunter more than 3 is simply irrelevant.

I concentrate on what 3 shots will do consistently over time, 5 different groups of 3 shots on several range visits tells me a lot more about the rifle than 3 groups of 5 shots all in the same day. Your rifle should be able to place 3 shots, with good ammo at or under 1" almost every time. A consistent group of 1.5-2" for 3 shots in 2015 is unacceptable, there are simply too many rifles that have proven to be better.

I won't say any of my rifles will shoot .5 MOA consistently. But 9 times out of 10 I'll put 3 shots into .5-.75" with several off the shelf rifles. I get the occasional lucky group under .5 as well as the occasional bad day when I go a bit over 1". But what it does day in and day out under varying conditions is what matters.

 

[gwpercle]

For a gun billed as a "Trophy Hunter" those groups are pretty darn good. And considering it groups ammo from 150 grains to 175 about the same that's a very good thing.
Could be it is truly a 1.5 inch grouping gun.
I would try some loads with Varget and Berger VLD bullets. I have an extensive 308 accuracy article, using 5 different rifles, they tested all manner of powders and bullets. Varget and Berger VLD's consistently beat the rest in every rifle.
You could find that one load your rifle loves best, but if it only turns out to be .75 to 1 inch rifle you might have to try custom barrel and other stuff.

As far as all those .5 inch groups with cheap rifles, What I do is shoot at 50 feet and tell everybody it was 100 yards. You have to be a well practiced marksman to consistently shoot 1/2 inch groups at 100 yards. I bet a lot of those guys do just what I do...lie
Gary

 

[ironworkerwill]

What I do is shoot at 50 feet and tell everybody it was 100 yards.

Are you trying to make me choke on my snuff?

I agree with jmr40.

Are you struggling to shoot the rifle? The more you fight with getting situated the more accuracy youll lose. There are simple ways to configure the rifle to suit your needs: elevated cheek pad, moving the scope to or away from your eye, or lowering the scope, ect. Make it as comfortable to shoot as possible.

I can't shoot 8 shots in a row and expect good groups. I'm just too fidgety and I have not trained myself for it. Get good at shooting 3 shot groups and then move up.

I see a lot of potential and none of the groups look bad. Maybe you just need to shoot more to gain confidence and satisfy yourself.

 

[Nature Boy]

I certainly have better results with bags front/rear than with the lead sled or bipod. Give that a try

I'll also say it takes me 10-20 rounds to get warmed up and "in the zone" so to speak, but that's me.

 

[alsaqr]

First, most of these people are full of crap, almost no shooters can shoot 1/2 MOA 5 rounds or more groups all the time with any rifle nevermind a milsurp.

Good point.

Those are good groups. Considering the fact that they were fired from an unmodified entry level rifle, they are great groups.

 

[anothernewb]

Well, sounds like my expectations were absurdly high then. I'm satisfied with the rifle in general, I was jut hoping to get one of those magical "one hole' three shot groups - you know how it goes.

That last target had a sticky bullseye on it when it was set up, but the first shot blew it off.

I will try a bag rest. I have one but don't hardly use it. I am comfortable shooting the rifle, without the lead sled after 20-30 rounds I get kinda sore and flinchy though... My biggest complaint about shooting it is my heartbeat. it's so stinking strong that it bounces in the scope. I have to be very careful with breathing and trigger timing to minimize it.

Generally, the rifle will shoot 2 touching or near touching holes, and then the third is always the odd one out. don't really understand why. The nice thing with the sights set up right now is that the very first- absolute cold bore shot, whether it be a 150 or a 168 is either right on, or within about 1/4 of the bull. I know it should be higher to maximize the point blank range, but realistically - in my area there just aren't longer than 200 yard shots on deer - or at least I know what 200 yards looks like and I won't take a longer one. I don't trust being able to hit one.

As far as a replacement stock - I would love a nice wood stock - but I have a lefty rifle...one of the reasons I bought this one. one of the few that comes in left.

I'll load up some more rounds and shoot some 3 shot groups and post them up for more analysis.

 

[readyeddy]

Give the gun at least 3 minutes to cool off beween shots. The third shot could be from a hot barrel.

 

[Skyshot]

What different powders have you tried. I think your rifle has promise, sometimes it takes many recipes to find the right one. I have a Savage 11 and a Stevens 200 in .308. Both have the cheap factory stocks. I have bedded both stocks to 1 inch above the recoil lug with Devcon, both have timney triggers. The Stevens likes IMR 3031 and 150 gr. Sierras the Savage likes Varget and 165 gr. Nosler BTs. Both rifles will MOA a 3 shot group at 100 yards, but it took a MANY MANY ladder tests to find those loads. Both rifles shot about like yours. You've just not found the right combo, and you may not, but i'd be willing to bet you've not found that rifles full potential yet.

 

[gamestalker]

Also try this. If possible have someone else chamber each round without you seeing whether they're chambering a live round, or an already fired one, thus stuffing an empty cartridge in every couple times. Doing this will help you see if you are pulling the shots. You'd be surprised how much you'll learn about your shooting, and it will help you improve. One should not know when that firing pin is going to fall, which is why we don't just pull the trigger, but rather squeeze. This is where a good trigger is handy also. When the rifle discharges it should be unexpected, you should be surprised.

Trying to consistently shoot good groups is tough with a heavy creepy trigger also. IMO, anything above a 2.5 lb. trigger is next to impossible to get consistent groups with, and even then that's a lot of trigger weight to deal with. It also needs to break well, if it has to travel at all before breaking, that too will have a negative effect. It's easier to shoot better groups with a 3 lb. trigger that breaks properly, than a light trigger that has a bunch of travel, though neither condition is optimal.

Check to make sure the barrel is floated properly, it shouldn't be touching the stock at all. Same is true when shooting, don't let the barrel make contact with anything, and don't let it rest on anything either.

GS

 

[Gtscotty]

I can't shoot my best groups off of a lead sled, just can't get the consistency i can with front and rear bags( To clarify, I think this is most of your problem, or at least the first thing I would change). A decent trigger also makes a difference as does consistent shoulder placement on the stock ( I try not to move the stock off my shoulder or change position while in the middle of a group). As other people have mentioned a good target helps with consistent groups as well, personally I always use the gray square grid target printed out from mytargets.com. I also like to take a .22 or .17 HMR to shoot while the main rifle I'm working on is cooling down...I think it helps me stay on edge a little better and not get flinchy on longer days.

 

[Steve S.]

I own a high end .308 with higher end glass and mount; it is super light and a beautiful piece however, it does an inch to an inch and a half at 100 - that is as good as I get. I bought it for the light weight, beautiful wood, occasional dialing in at the bench and shooting a deer that is dumb enough to walk out in front of me. I was initially disappointed with the bench results but soon realized that the thing will do exactly what I bought it for and then some - is a pleasure to carry all day and will kill a deer as far as I care to shoot. It all depends on your expectations and real needs. Good shooting.

 

[Ash]

As has already been said, the majority, if not the vast majority, of sub MOA (and MOA) claims are just plain made up. The reality is that a K98k, Enfield, or Mosin were never manufactured to be MOA rifles. No, not even the vaunted German rifle. Does it happen from time to time? Yes.

But claims are no better than listening to fishing stories. You have to take them with a grain of salt and even then suspend at least a portion of your disbelief.

Or, let's look at it another way. 1.5 MOA is remarkably good shooting in most scenarios. Putting shots into a half-dollar 100 yards away, or a mayonaise jar lid 200 yards away is really great shooting. Yeah, it really is. No, it isn't world record kind of stuff, but it's mighty fine shooting. It is good hunter shooting. It is good sniper shooting.

Yet here, 1.5 MOA is considered bleh. Some guys say a rifle is no good with 1.5. Yet 1.5MOA is better than the German Army's accuracy requirements for K98k's prior to WWII.

Even now, it would not surprise me to have somebody chime in that a rifle that is 1.5, or gasp, 2 MOA, is just no good - as if putting all your shots into a two inch circle at 100 yards is terrible.

But an Expert Marksmanship badge can be achieved with a rifle that is only 2MOA. Sometimes MOA is the sole focus, and quality marksmanship, quality shooting, falls by the wayside. Naturally there are those who will disagree.

 

[Dean1818]

I worked my tail off on a Yugo Mauser

Bedded the action
Installed a mount
Installed a new trigger
Installed a HP scope
Reloaded and played with different OAL / bullet / powder combos

I got it down to 1.2.......

the .2 DROVE ME CRAZY

The 1 MOA milsurp was my goal ........ I finally gave up

I "became" happy with the 1.2 best group........