Loading 45-70

[fpgt72]

45-70 Trapdoor.....questions.

First off I have reloaded for quite a few years, but I have not loaded for anything this old....and this "weak".....and I want to keep my face....for some reason the wife likes it....I really can't figure out why....
I am going to cross post this on several different forums....most of you guys roam around on different "gun sites" so you might see this same stuff in other places....also the reason it is G-rated.....can anything gun related be G-Rated....not sure in this day and age....anyhoo....here we go.

First off I am working under the impression that less pressure is better. This is why I am not even looking at things like Trail Boss....people tend to look at that for 45-70, but I don't think that is real wise....for my first reason in going the way I am going....

Pressure.

I am going under the thought that keeping the pressure as low as I can in this old girl is the best thing to do....all my loads are published to be under 20,000 CUP, 20k kept coming up as the don't go over this in researching Trapdoor loads......light trail boss loads are over 20k....I just don't think that is wise, and in my initial research the only reason people are using powders like trail boss is you use so little of it....well ok, but if I am going to pinch pennies like that I really should look at another hobby.

Below are the loads, FPS readings, and what the published CUP is for each....The "control" I used Remington Green and Gold box that is labeled "safe for all rifles".

So in looking at this....the first entry is the remington.

The second would be read as 46 grains of 4046 published CUP of 17900 and published FPS of 1534....My measured FPS readings are below this.

I only shot one round of 3031 as it was just so darn fast....I did pull one down and it is correct, but that fast I am a little worried about.....these loads are all with a 405 grain bullet out of a standard Trapdoor rifle, not carbine.

Looking for thoughts on all of this.

Here we go....

Remington green and gold box:

1183

1213

1214

46 Grains of 4064 CUP 17900 at 1534

1462

1459

1450

45.6 Grains 4895 18900 CUP 1496

1565

1592

1559

40 Grains Varget 15600 Cup 1392

1227

1264

1245

1245

45.5 Grains 3031 17300 CUP 1597

1721

 

[Jessesky]

IMR 4350 is what I use under a 405gr bullet. I use that in a rolling block, trapdoor, and 1886

 

[Lafitte]

The Lyman 50th. has lots of loads for 400/405 grain bullets in .45/70 that are within the pressure limits that you stated. True, Trail Boss goes over that pressure but it is still in the range for a Trapdoor, I like it in a light load for .45/70.
Lafitte

 

[ArchAngelCD]

For over 100 years most loads for the Trapdoor have been made with cast powders unlike what I see above. The slowest powder i use for the 45-70 is IMR3031 and that is for a levergun, not my Trapdoor.

Years ago Unique and 2400 were use in the 45-70 but back then there were few choices. I used a lot of 4198 for the Trapdoor until I tried AA5744 and now that's all I use. AA5744 is a great choice for the 45-70 IMO and if you try it I feel you will agree.

Again IMO powders like Varget and especially 4350 are way too slow for Trapdoor 45-70 ammo. Can they be used, sure but they are not the best choices. Just a note, Trail Boss will deliver low velocities but not generate the lowest pressures. On the Hodgdon site with a 405gr bullet they quote Trail Boss generating 1007 fps with 24,600 CUP and 4198 generating 1459 fps with only 17,000 CUP pressure. Boy do I miss SR4759.

 

[Charlie98]

I had to reeducate myself on powders and pressure when I got my 1885 Pedersoli. I load it and treat it like a Trapdoor, basically, and only shoot cast bullets in it; further, I try to keep my pressures in the 15K PSI range, or less. My past experience with the .45-70 was in a Browning 1886, and then a Marlin 1895... both stronger actions, and at a time when I thought More was Better. My initial tries with the .45-70 was with IMR4895 and IMR4064... I found both of them waaay too much for not only the 1895, but certainly the 1885. Using faster powders in reasonable charges is the way to go with Trapdoor loads... IMR4198, AA5744, and even faster burners like IMR4227, 2400, and Unique (although I'm not a big fan of Unique in the .45-70 because of some problems with powder position.) I just loaded up some test loads... ~20grn AA5744/~30grn IMR4198/~20grn 2400 all over a 385grn cast bullet; with those charges... give or take a few grains as you work the load up... are all good with bullets in the 350-405grn range. Those test loads should produce velocities in the 1300-1500fps range, and pressure not over 15K (the IMR4198 loads are right at 15-16K psi.) The faster the powder, typically, the more complete the burn as well. 2400 almost burns 100% (according to QuickLoad in my 32" barrel) but AA5744 and IMR4198 only in the mid 80%... and the slower the powder, the worse it gets.

 

[crest117]

I shoot a model 1884 Trapdoor often. The load I use is mild but accurate at 100 yds. which is about as far as I can shoot with the iron sights. 28 or 29 gns of H4198 with a 405 gn Hi-Tek bullet from Missouri Bullets. This will closely approximate the original black powder load and the coated bullet is easy on the barrel with almost no leading. I have shot hundreds of this load with no problems.

 

[troy fairweather]

5744 best powder for trapdoor loads low psi to. for hot i like 3031.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

I also really like 5744 in my 45-70 and 45-90's. One of my favorite bullets is the is the 385gr. Lyman 458124. Double check your data. Make sure that data is not at a Number One Ruger level. One bullet that works very well in Trapdoors is the Lee 400gr. hollow base bullet.

 

[fpgt72]

Thanks for all the tips, you have given me a few more things to try. In my research I was under the impression to stay under 20k....is that what most of you guys try to do as well?

The one thing I really want to try is that VV powder I came across.....my notes are at home so I don't remember just what it was aside from not being real common....as well all VV stuff is around here. Guess I will wait for a free hazmat shipping deal from someone and order up some.

I have double checked all my loads, and they are on the money....even the 3031 that had me quit shooting it. That one seemed to really be humming.

I am using the coated bullets from MO bullet, not sure if I said that at the start.

I don't have any powders (I think) made by accurate....generally an IMR kind of guy but I will give anything a go.

I am really trying to pair down the powders as much as I can....they are starting to over flow their storage.....but when you reload for all the different stuff I do....it is what it is.

I am really getting to the point that I enjoy the loading more then the shooting.

 

[troy fairweather]

Thanks for all the tips, you have given me a few more things to try. In my research I was under the impression to stay under 20k....is that what most of you guys try to do as well?

The one thing I really want to try is that VV powder I came across.....my notes are at home so I don't remember just what it was aside from not being real common....as well all VV stuff is around here. Guess I will wait for a free hazmat shipping deal from someone and order up some.

I have double checked all my loads, and they are on the money....even the 3031 that had me quit shooting it. That one seemed to really be humming.

I am using the coated bullets from MO bullet, not sure if I said that at the start.

I don't have any powders (I think) made by accurate....generally an IMR kind of guy but I will give anything a go.

I am really trying to pair down the powders as much as I can....they are starting to over flow their storage.....but when you reload for all the different stuff I do....it is what it is.

I am really getting to the point that I enjoy the loading more then the shooting.

really the only powders that are under 20k are black powder and 5744.

 

[Charlie98]

really the only powders that are under 20k are black powder and 5744.

That's just not true. In the loads I quoted above, IMR4198 has less pressure than AA5744 at equivalent velocity (using QL software as a reference) and I'm sure there are more. Using a 405grn cast bullet for reference, 22.6grn AA5744 at 1300fps reads 12324psi, 26.8grn IMR4198 at 1304fps reads 11107psi... all very low, certainly well below 20K.

OP, if you are an IMR guy, like me, I wouldn't look any further than IMR4198 for your purposes. I have a can of AA5744, but I haven't really found anything it does that IMR4198 doesn't... and unless something magically appears in my next test loads, it won't have a permanent spot on the bench.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

nd unless something magically appears in my next test loads, it won't have a permanent spot on the bench.

5744: Look, I know you really hate the stuff. Out of generosity and kindness I will be glad to dispose of all you have. I know 5744 can leave all that ash in your barrel. It kinda looks funny in the powder measure. In all seriousness, I am going to take a close look at IMR 4198. Thanks for the tip.

 

[Charlie98]

5744: Look, I know you really hate the stuff.

Actually, I really wanted to like it... it came very highly recommended from some very experienced shooters (many of which shoot BP.) But what I found was... it really didn't do anything more than IMR4198... which I already had on the bench. I also use IMR4198 to load cast in .30-30, .308, and .348.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

I started using 5744 in a rebuilt Winchester 1885. That's where I learn to do homework on 5744 loads. Lyman was the offender at the time. :Last month 5744 was used making up some 45-90 rounds with the 385gr. Lyman bullet using a recommended charge. The load with that bullet "cracked" when discharged. That, and the recoil made it clear it was better not to go any heavier. Looks like, so far, the message is clear about not running hot loads in antiques. The 45-90 rifle is a Pedersoli Sharps. The 5744 is exceptionally accurate in that rifle and others here on the hill. I want to try the IMR 4198.

 

[Charlie98]

My current test loads are with that Lyman 385grn bullet. I have QL data for it if you want it.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

My current test loads are with that Lyman 385grn bullet. I have QL data for it if you want it.

Sure, for 4198 with 385gr. bullets. Thanks.

 

[troy fairweather]

That's just not true. In the loads I quoted above, IMR4198 has less pressure than AA5744 at equivalent velocity (using QL software as a reference) and I'm sure there are more. Using a 405grn cast bullet for reference, 22.6grn AA5744 at 1300fps reads 12324psi, 26.8grn IMR4198 at 1304fps reads 11107psi... all very low, certainly well below 20K.

OP, if you are an IMR guy, like me, I wouldn't look any further than IMR4198 for your purposes. I have a can of AA5744, but I haven't really found anything it does that IMR4198 doesn't... and unless something magically appears in my next test loads, it won't have a permanent spot on the bench.

oops i did not see 4198 on the list.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Thanks for all the tips, you have given me a few more things to try. In my research I was under the impression to stay under 20k....is that what most of you guys try to do as well?

Most online data sources will have 2 or 3 45-70 data levels. Some stop at 18,000 PSI and some go as high as 28,000 PSI for the Trapdoor. I would say 20,000 PSI is the Trapdoor limit.

Edit to correct the pressure numbers.

 

[troy fairweather]

Most online data sources will have 2 or 3 45-70 data levels. Some stop at 18,000 PSI and some go as high as 28,000 PSI. I would say 28,000 PSI is the Trapdoor limit.

i think the bp trapdoor loads were like 14k #3 loads seam to get hotter and hotter these days. i shoot #4 loads in my siamese mauser but there not fun.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

i think the bp trapdoor loads were like 14k #3 loads seam to get hotter and hotter these days. i shoot #4 loads in my siamese mauser but there not fun.

I don't know what #3 or #4 loads are.

Lyman lists 18,000 CUP as the Trapdoor limit. They list 28,000 CUP as the levergun limit and 40,000 CUP as the modern action limit. I trust them.

 

[Charlie98]

I don't know what #3 or #4 loads are.

Lyman lists 18,000 CUP as the Trapdoor limit. They list 28,000 CUP as the levergun limit and 40,000 CUP as the modern action limit. I trust them.

+1. As I mentioned, I try to limit my .45-70 loads... in a new Pedersoli 1885... to just 15K... it doesn't make any sense to hammer it with more, and if I had a Trapdoor, vintage or otherwise, I would do the same. If I can't get it done with 405grns of bullet at 1500fps, I need a different gun!

When I had my Marlin 1895, some of my loads were getting close to 2000fps (I would have to look at my data for specifics...) and boy howdy! those got your attention. Those were with IMR4895 and IMR4064.

 

[Old Stumpy]

I always liked 3031 for .45-70 and .30-30.
Your load for 45.5 grains of 3031 and a 405 grain bullet seems high for a Springfield Trapdoor.
The Lyman 48th Edition Reloading Manual lists 38.5 grains as maximum for a 405 grain cast lead bullet, and the velocity for same is 1352 FPS with a pressure of 16,000 CUP. That's close to the military load velocity with black powder.
Personally, after perusing the Lyman handbook, I would not use loads exceeding 18,000 CUP in a Trapdoor.
A 405 grain / 1350 FPS load will do anything that you would reasonably want a load from an old action to do, so why go higher?
Deer, elk, moose, black bear - no problem.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

My suggestion is to always double check older Lyman data on 45-70 and 45-90.

 

[fpgt72]

I am hunting down some older books, as I have quite a few....out of print...cartridges I load for....30 remington I load a bit like 30-30....but whenever I go to a gun show I always check out the old books. Online sources are nice, and I do look at load data dot com, if I don't have it any place else....or to get a better understanding on what is out there.

3031 came up in my research quite a bit, but the loads for the TD are all over the place. Now that I have some kind of base line I can do some work from there.

It is always amazing to post a question like this....you get so many people that will answer you that actually know what they are talking about....but always there is one that is really.....huh...eh what.....mmmm ok pal.

Yesterday was a day off for Missouri guberment people, so I pulled down a few of the things I had loaded up....I only made 5 of each, did not work up anything new, as where I shoot at home is basically a flood area and it is real swampy back there, the club also has some water issues so that will be out as well.....give me some time to make some new.

Also working up some (yea you read it right) softer loads for the 30 carbine for the wife.

 

[Ireload2]

Loading the 45-70 is very simple
Pick the EXTRUDED powder you would like to use between 2400, 4227, 5744 to 4198 in burning rate
Load it to the pressure you want to use based on the manufacturer's data.
(Forget your VV powder and any others that have very little loading data. That will help you minimize powder types.) I use 4759 even though it was discontinued. I bought a lot of it just for the 45-70. It is about the same burn rate as 4227 and 5744. It really is that simple to load. I have been loading for the 45-70 since 1972 and have used those loads in nearly a dozen rifles.

This is what Pedersoli says about the subject in general.
https://www.bpcr.net/site_docs-resu...li_proof_rules_and_allowable_limits_09-04.htm

Thanks for all the tips, you have given me a few more things to try. In my research I was under the impression to stay under 20k....is that what most of you guys try to do as well?

The one thing I really want to try is that VV powder I came across.....my notes are at home so I don't remember just what it was aside from not being real common....as well all VV stuff is around here. Guess I will wait for a free hazmat shipping deal from someone and order up some.

I have double checked all my loads, and they are on the money....even the 3031 that had me quit shooting it. That one seemed to really be humming.

I am using the coated bullets from MO bullet, not sure if I said that at the start.

I don't have any powders (I think) made by accurate....generally an IMR kind of guy but I will give anything a go.

I am really trying to pair down the powders as much as I can....they are starting to over flow their storage.....but when you reload for all the different stuff I do....it is what it is.

I am really getting to the point that I enjoy the loading more then the shooting.