Loading a 30-06 to 65k?

[Kachok]

Ok before I say more let me clarify I am talking about loading for a MODERN BOLT ACTION rifle nothing else. Looking through my SAAMI specs today I saw that the 30-06 was listed at 60,000psi max pressure while it's offspring the 270 Winchester is rated to 65,000psi and the 25-06 was 63,000 psi. Given that the brass is nearly the same except the neck diameter and the actions are identical is loading a 30-06 to 65k any more dangerous then loading a 270 to it's safe limit? I cannot think of any reason why.

 

[steve4102]

Neither can I, cept there is little to no tested data out there for the 30-06 running at 65K. So, going above max load data to find 65K is only a guess. But, then again loading your 30-06 to 60K using published data is also only a guess.

Quickload can be very helpful when attempting this type of increased pressure loading.

 

[Kachok]

5k difference in an 06 case I would think would be aprox 1.5-2gr depending on the powder in question. Of course I am pretty sure that published load data is well below the 60k mark already, over the years max loads have been reduced by several grains in some cases. Now mind you I don't need any more power out of my 06 in fact I toned it down to 308 speeds for deer hunting.

 

[john wall]

There are some factory loads that are near that point. Don't forget, the Ought-Six is over a hundred years old, and there are many rifles out there that are both old AND worn, so the domestic factories have watered down the ammo.

Modern rifle, good solid head brass, no issue. You will get shorter case life.

For long range hunting loads, no issue. Work up the load in new brass, march on.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Just because the 25-06, 270, 338-06 and the like are based on the 30-06 cartridge doesn't make them the same. The internal ballistics are different. Case in point, the 25-06 can uses slower powders than the 30-06. Just because the cases are similar doesn't mean the pressure curve will be the same when you get up near the top end of the range. Because we have no way of testing we can't know what will happen if you push the pressures above 60,000 PSI and what will happen when using different weight bullets. I like to push the envelope once and a while but I would not push a cartridge with a 60,000 PSI limit to 65,000 PSI, especially since I have no way of knowing when I hit 65,000 PSI. Since we have no way of knowing for sure you may be loading a charge you "think" will push 63,000 or 64,000 PSI and it's really close to 70,000 PSI. Not good at all...

That's what they make the 300 Win Mag for, pressures over 60,000 PSI. lol

 

[Bio-Chem]

Wouldn't a reloader just want to find the most accurate load? What's the extra 100 fps really going to get you anyways?

 

[Kachok]

Well I "push" a cartrige with a SAAMI spec of 45,000psi to over 53k every time I go to the range and have for years (modern action 6.5x55), I have yet to have an issue heck I even get fantastic brass life. Pressure spec is the PEAK pressure the remaining pressure curve has nothing to do with mechanical failure (or lack there of). If pressure is going to cause any kind of failure it won't be when the bullet is halfway down the tube and only residual pressures remains it will be when it is at it's highest. Or that is my understanding of metallurgy anyway.

 

[steveno]

so why push the limits? how much do you think you will really gain with the extra 5,000 psi? my guess is not enough to matter for anything that you would shoot with a 30-06

 

[Kachok]

Wouldn't a reloader just want to find the most accurate load? What's the extra 100 fps really going to get you anyways?

You assume that the faster load is not the most accurate. Using the 45kpsi loads for my Swede I only get .75" groups, pushing it to modern pressures I can get MUCH better then that. Never loaded my 06 above published data so I cannot comment if there are more accurate loads higher up, don't need them though, and I sure don't need the extra power.

 

[Kachok]

so why push the limits? how much do you think you will really gain with the extra 5,000 psi? my guess is not enough to matter for anything that you would shoot with a 30-06

Don't have any plans to load mine to 65k, but if I ever need to work up a stout load for long range or what not, and my groups are getting tighter as I work up I would not be opposed to going over .5-1gr attempting to fine tune it, I would not do the same with a 270 or another cartridge that is already 65k.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

Well I "push" a cartrige with a SAAMI spec of 45,000psi to over 53k every time I go to the range and have for years (modern action 6.5x55), I have yet to have an issue heck I even get fantastic brass life. Pressure spec is the PEAK pressure the remaining pressure curve has nothing to do with mechanical failure (or lack there of). If pressure is going to cause any kind of failure it won't be when the bullet is halfway down the tube and only residual pressures remains it will be when it is at it's highest. Or that is my understanding of metallurgy anyway.

You assume that the faster load is not the most accurate. Using the 45kpsi loads for my Swede I only get .75" groups, pushing it to modern pressures I can get MUCH better then that. Never loaded my 06 above published data so I cannot comment if there are more accurate loads higher up, don't need them though, and I sure don't need the extra power.

You know, you ask a question and when you get opinions you don't agree with you argue with the poster. If you already know all the answers why bother asking anyone anything? The 30-06 is over 100 years old and is still one of the best hunting and killing cartridges ever made so why mess with it?

Do what you want with your 30-06, I'm done here!

 

[Kachok]

Did not mean to hurt your feelings, I was just trying to understand if there was something that made that case unsafe at the same pressure as it's sibling. Seems alot like the old Mauser cartridges being listed at 100 year old rifle pressures because of old rifles to me. That in fact has absolutely no bearing on modern actions as we see with the 6.5x55 which even some reloading experts recommend loading to modern pressures, Nosler and Norma both publish load data well in excess of SAAMI spec.

 

[Bio-Chem]

I'm not assuming anything. i'm merely commenting on the fact you are chasing velocity by wanting to up the pressure. If you were chasing accuracy then you do a good job of hiding it as accuracy wasn't mentioned in any of your posts until I brought it up. If you are wanting accuracy and you find your most accurate load is a grain or so higher than published max's with no untoward safety signs then go for it. Not sure why you'd want to as you've already stated you download the 30-06 anyways. Best of luck to you in your search for whatever it is you are looking for?

 

[Kachok]

Only asking as a theory to satisfy my curiosity. If there was some reason why the same pressure was less safe in the 06 that would be good to know before I ever try working up another load.

 

[jmr40]

There have been thousands or handloaders who have safely pushed the 30-06 beyond 60,000 psi for decades. There is no reason not to do so in modern rifles. It is one of those rounds that is easy and safe to beat factory loads in modern rifles

Up until the 1950's a 150 gr bullet @ 2700 fps was standard. Today 2900 fps is pretty standard and 3000 fps is easy for a handloader even with a 22" barrel. 3100 fps is possible for handloader with a 24-26" barrel.

 

[USSR]

Kachok,

Your reasoning is sound. They don't make the same rifle with a receiver capable of 65k psi for the .270 Winchester, and a different receiver only capable of 60k psi for the .30-06. The only problem is, finding load data that takes the .30-06 up to that pressure level. If you are interested in shooting the 190gr SMK at a level that take it firmly up to the 60k psi level PM me for details.

Don

 

[steve4102]

Here is an example of what I do. This is 180gr Sierra with IMR 4350.

Hodgdon data is 56.5gr at 2752 @ 57200 psi, Highlighted.

QL at 64+psi is 58.76gr, Highlighted.

 Cartridge          : .30-06 Spring.  (SAAMI)
Bullet             : .308, 180, Sierra SPBT 2160
Cartridge O.A.L. L6: 3.340 inch or 84.84 mm
Barrel Length      : 24.0 inch or 609.6 mm
Powder             : IMR 4350

Predicted data by increasing and decreasing the given charge,
incremented in steps of 2.0% of nominal charge.
CAUTION: Figures exceed maximum and minimum recommended loads !

Step    Fill. Charge   Vel.  Energy   Pmax   Pmuz  Prop.Burnt B_Time
 %       %    Grains   fps   ft.lbs    psi    psi      %        ms

-20.0   81    45.20   2211    1955   30580   7222     88.7    1.572
-18.0   83    46.33   2264    2049   32567   7451     89.9    1.531
-16.0   85    47.46   2317    2146   34681   7674     91.1    1.491
-14.0   87    48.59   2370    2245   36933   7891     92.1    1.452
-12.0   89    49.72   2423    2346   39330   8101     93.2    1.410
-10.0   91    50.85   2476    2450   41883   8303     94.1    1.369
-08.0   93    51.98   2529    2556   44600   8496     95.0    1.330
-06.0   95    53.11   2582    2664   47470   8681     95.8    1.293
-04.0   97    54.24   2634    2774   50518   8856     96.6    1.257
-02.0   99    55.37   2687    2886   53766   9020     97.2    1.222  ! Near Maximum !
[B]+00.0  101    56.50   2739    3000   57231   9173     97.8    1.189  ! Near Maximum ![/B]
+02.0  103    57.63   2792    3115   60929   9314     98.4    1.156  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
[B]+04.0  105    58.76   2844    3233   64881   9442     98.8    1.125  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE![/B]
+06.0  107    59.89   2896    3352   69106   9557     99.2    1.095  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+08.0  109    61.02   2948    3473   73630   9659     99.5    1.065  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
+10.0  111    62.15   3000    3596   78478   9746     99.8    1.037  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!

Results caused by ± 10% powder lot-to-lot burning rate variation using nominal charge
Data for burning rate increased by 10% relative to nominal value:
+Ba    101    56.50   2859    3266   67510   9036    100.0    1.109  !DANGEROUS LOAD-DO NOT USE!
Data for burning rate decreased by 10% relative to nominal value:
-Ba    101    56.50   2581    2662   47189   8886     92.0    1.292

 

[buck460XVR]

Ok before I say more let me clarify I am talking about loading for a MODERN BOLT ACTION rifle nothing else. Looking through my SAAMI specs today I saw that the 30-06 was listed at 60,000psi max pressure while it's offspring the 270 Winchester is rated to 65,000psi and the 25-06 was 63,000 psi. Given that the brass is nearly the same except the neck diameter and the actions are identical is loading a 30-06 to 65k any more dangerous then loading a 270 to it's safe limit? I cannot think of any reason why.

As others have said, loading the ought-six to 65,000psi is not the problem. The problem is the average handloader determining when they have reached 65,000psi in their firearm. Most of us know that chamber pressure does not increase on the same curve as increases in powder charges. Assuming 1 or 2 grains will "get" you there....safely, without proper testing equipment, is just that, an assumption. If accuracy increase the closer one gets to max, does one risk safety and continue past max to see if accuracy still continues to increase? If the most accurate load outta the gun is over safe pressure, is it worth it? Only the gun's owner knows the answers.

 

[CB900F]

Kachok;

As it was explained to me, quite some time ago, the problem is peak pressure of course. But, how peak pressure occurs is not the same from cartridge to cartridge, or load to load. Bullet friction as evidenced by crimp or not, jacket material, diameter, and/or neck tension are all factors that can and do influence the pressure curve. Given your .270/.30-06 scenario, with the same weight bullets, the smaller diameter bullet is going to be longer and therefore have more bearing surface between it & the barrel. Or, the jacket material is of a different composition or hardness and that too can make a significant difference.

When you're operating at near max, sometimes it doesn't take much more than a sneeze to go from a safe-but-max-pressure to a spike that blows out primer pockets and makes bolt lift a job. There are a number of powders out there that are just fine in November at 40f but will light up your life on the fourth of July at 103f when you are pushing the limits.

We are quite literally playing with dynamite you know. Which is not to say that, as in the case of your Swede, that limits may be artificially low. Also, the energy levels differ in different lots of powder. I had that brought home to me in dramatic fashion once upon a time. Had shot hundreds of rounds, used several 1 lb. canisters and was a happy camper. Then I got some eye-opening pressure levels that were in no way "maybe" events. Never changed the load recipe by a jot, just a new can of powder. Bought another can, same deal, blown pocket, impossible bolt lift, etc.

Good luck.

900F

 

[gamestalker]

Kachok, I' much like you, in that, I'm always pushing the limits and have also found some of my most accurate loads are those that contradict maximum published data. And I do it in the 06, .243, 6mm /rem, .270, and some belted mags too. this is one of the advantages to reloading, is we can make those decisions, and at our own risk of course.

Whether or not I've taken a cartridge up beyond SAAMI spec, who knows? But I would venture to guess I probably do and on a regular basis, and I manage to still get some pretty good life spans from my brass too. Right head space, precision assembled cartridges, a strong action, and a safe work up procedure will get up there safely. Just closely inspect each piece of brass as you extract it, only make SMALL increases in powder charges, and you'll be able to intercept any serious problems.

I will say this though, if you load with this mind set, you must be well versed in what to watch for in every aspect. I would be lying if I said I never had a head separation, but I was expecting to see it on those few occasions I've experienced one. Since I was using brass that was approaching it's last run, and incipient separations are a part of my world, since I run my brass to the absolute limit.

Keep a close eye on things, and don't introduce large charge increases to the process.

GS

 

[Kachok]

I am always double checking my powder canister/charge when reloading. The funny thing is the worst pressure sign I have ever had was from a factory round. 130gr Winchester Power Max in my Savage 270 Win, blew the primer clean out! That was scary.

 

[gamestalker]

Funny thing, my son bought some factory for a new 7 mag and it was running extreme pressures, so high we could hardly get the brass out of the chamber after firing it. Every single piece of brass from that lot was locking the action up tighter than if it had been welded closed. And as I said, I like to push the envelope, but I've yet to have anything bad, or unexpected happen with one of my own loads.

GS

 

[Kachok]

I have had exactly one load do something unexpected, loading 45.5gr of Varget in my 308 behind a 150gr Speer gave me such high pressure that it locked up the bolt, you could imagine my surprise when that happened hardly over minimum load. Backed off one grain and it shoots bug holes without a trace of pressure. That rifle shot max loads of other powders without a problem using the same bullet at the same length, Varget scares me I quit using it for load development.

 

[buck460XVR]

I have had exactly one load do something unexpected, loading 45.5gr of Varget in my 308 behind a 150gr Speer gave me such high pressure that it locked up the bolt. Backed off one grain and it shoots bug holes without a trace of pressure.

Experiences such as that is why I question the assumption that "5k difference in an 06 case I would think would be aprox 1.5-2gr depending on the powder in question."

Many times when striving for best accuracy, I find that trying a variety of different bullets/powders in a particular gun within safe published loads works well enough that I have yet to feel the need to go past published loads in search of better. I also find that using a different caliber to achieve something that another caliber is incapable of when using safe reloading practices and staying within tested load recipes, makes me more comfortable than "pushin' the envelope" and trying to make that caliber something it was not intended to be. But that's just me using my firearms. I am just a hunter and a range shooter, I do not make a living from shooting. I certainly have no problem with what other folks do using their firearms, especially when they have the knowledge and skill to do it safely.