Loading by percentage of case volume

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outlawjw

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I'm sure it's been studied by one or more of the experienced loaders we have on here , so please enlighten me as to where to find it , or help me understand it.
I don't know how to adjust the powder load for two different volume cases to get the same poi . Could you find a great load with identical volume brass & then figure the volume percentage & then load a lower or higher volume case to the same percentage?
 
Well over my head but I would think that the difference in case volume (by percentage) would be so minute that it wouldn't matter very much.

All other things considered.

The case volume of H2O is pretty narrow as to the difference.

Look at this chart of 223 brass case volume

http://www.6mmbr.com/223Rem.html
 
To make sure I'm understanding the question:

Develop great load in caliber A for rifle 1. Use this data to achieve similar success in caliber B for rifle 2. If that is what you're asking then:

As each rifle has its own unique personality, taking load data beyond generalities isn't going to help much. For instance we pretty much all know a Sierra Match King is going to shoot great, we just have to find the powder charge for our rifle. We pretty much all would agree a 69gr SMK with somewhere in the neighborhood of 23.5-26gr of Varget is going to shoot well. Again though testing in your rifle is going to be required to find what the exact charge that works well is.

-Jenrick
 
Perhaps finding loads that produce the same/similar velocity would be better than trying to find a formula to get the same pressure/velocity from volume of a larger case...
 
I'm talking about one rifle. In a box of 50 new hornady brass I get variances of as much as 4 grns of brass weight & 3 grns variance in powder weight by volume. I usually sort my brass to no more than 1/2 a grain up or down Frome a chosen weight that produces the best groups for me. Then I load them all the same & the loads that are above or below the chosen loads generally do not give me the same tight grouping as the chosen loads.
I also weigh my bullets & have tried putting heavier bullets in lower volume cases & lighter bullets in higher volume cases & that helps some but not enough.
Just trying to figure a way to get similar groups out of different weight brass without having to test & test for each weight/ volume difference.
I hope I put that in a way that you understand what I'm asking , cause I'm not sure I understand what I wrote.
Thanks for bearing with me
 
Loading is not done by percentage of case volume. Ever. Smokeless powder is not loaded by volume either.
Four grains of brass weight and 3 grains variance in powder is negligible. And you really do not need to sort your cases by volume or weight. You're making your loading way over complicated.
 
Funny this should come up as I just posted something about this in another thread.

When starting out I use a load chart from several locations as a guide. I will choose my powder and fill to the shoulder of the case and then weigh the charge. This charge weight will be close to the most accurate load 80% of the time. This is due to most powders are the most efficient when case fill is at 90% or better. I compare this to the load charts. So as an example, the load range for a case is 38-42gr on a chart. My case fill test to the shoulder weighs in at 41.3gr, which is within the margin of safety as its on the chart. From that measurement I will take plus or minus 1% of the charge weight and build 3 test loads of 5 shots each. So my ladder will be 39.9, 41.3, 41.7. 95% of the time this will produce an accurate load, I might fine tune a couple 10ths of a grain from one of those and may end up with a load that is over book max. So say my 41.7 gives the best accuracy, I will take that load +/- .2 gr to see what is best. Obviously book max could be lower, say 41gr in the above example, and loading to my suspected best load might be a little sketchy. At that point I do take a little more care, and build up a little slower, but unless we are seeing really heavy compression with the 41.7 load, Id still load 5 and if I dont see wicked pressure signs on the 1st round of the string would shoot all 5. This is obviously a simplified example, as smaller cases like 223 give alot less margin and require smaller jumps than something like a 30-06.

I still ladder my loads out, I just take a shortcut to figure out where I need to start. I only use this load for trying to find max velocity and accuracy at the same time. For loads where Im trying to build something a little milder, Ill start in the middle of the load range, take .5gr jumps. Say the load range is 38-43. Ill start at 40gr, work down to 39 and up to 41, with 39, 39.5, 40, 40.5, 41. Ill take the best group and +/- .2 gr and see whats the best to fine tune.

For pistol loads I dont use this technique.
 
Loading is not done by percentage of case volume. Ever. Smokeless powder is not loaded by volume either.
Four grains of brass weight and 3 grains variance in powder is negligible. And you really do not need to sort your cases by volume or weight. You're making your loading way over complicated.

Correct, but some powders simply function better when you are getting closer to max load as the case gets fuller they are more efficient. For 300 BO with W296 I find this all the time, and the same for some loads in 223 and 308 with certain powders, generally longer burning.
 
outlawjw wrote:
I also weigh my bullets & have tried putting heavier bullets in lower volume cases & lighter bullets in higher volume cases & that helps some but not enough.

A case with lower volume will develop a given level of pressure faster than one with a higher volume, so why would you put heavier bullets in the lower volume cases - or are you trying to compensate for inertia?
 
I'm talking about one rifle. In a box of 50 new hornady brass I get variances of as much as 4 grns of brass weight & 3 grns variance in powder weight by volume. I usually sort my brass to no more than 1/2 a grain up or down Frome a chosen weight that produces the best groups for me. Then I load them all the same & the loads that are above or below the chosen loads generally do not give me the same tight grouping as the chosen loads.
I also weigh my bullets & have tried putting heavier bullets in lower volume cases & lighter bullets in higher volume cases & that helps some but not enough.
Just trying to figure a way to get similar groups out of different weight brass without having to test & test for each weight/ volume difference.
I hope I put that in a way that you understand what I'm asking , cause I'm not sure I understand what I wrote.
Thanks for bearing with me

Internal case volume is measured with H2O, I do not know how one can measure volume constantly/accurately with powder??

Depends on if it is "shaken not stirred":) or how it is settled(compressed) what kind of powder shape etc.

Like using the Lee Dippers, if one does not scoop correctly and exactly the same, every time, the weight will vary a tiny bit.
 
Once you have developed a powder/bullet/velocity with Case Volume 'A',
Quickload will easily give you the (same) powder's new weight for the same velocity using Case 'B's new volume.

EZ PZ. :thumbup:
 
Depends on if it is "shaken not stirred":) or how it is settled(compressed) what kind of powder shape etc.
Yep! That's why those long-range BPCR competitors slowly pour their powder into their cases through 24" drop tubes. Even at that, the actual weight of the black powder needed to fill the cartridge cases varies with the granulation ( Fg vs. FFg for instance) of the powder.:)

Like using the Lee Dippers, if one does not scoop correctly and exactly the same, every time, the weight will vary a tiny bit.
Ain't that the truth! Just last night I was trying to work up some new 9mm loads using Power Pistol powder. For my starting loads, I was using a Lee dipper that I just barely skimmed across the surface of the powder in the bowl, filling the dipper to just level. For my top (hottest) loads, I was running the dipper deep in the bowl, heaping it up, with a little extra powder sitting on the dipper's handle - that gave me with another .5grs of powder, which is significant in a little 9mm Luger case.:)
 
  • According to Winchester, the cartridge brass they use has density 0.308 lb/in3 @ 68 degrees F. Converted, that's 131.567 grains per cc. So 4 grains of brass is 0.03 cubic centimeters.
  • All gunpowders have a different density (grains per cc) but let's use IMR4895 just as a sample. It has almost exactly 25 grains per cc. So 0.03 cubic centimeters will hold 0.75 grains of IMR4895.
  • Just using mathematics (not real-world testing), you would adjust IMR4895 by about + 3/4 of one grain for a case weighing +4 grains. Going by mathematics alone, you can calculate the adjustment for other powders.

However, all highly experienced handloaders will explain that your gun will tell you point-of-impact. Each gun is its own platform, change in point of impact is pretty much specific to each gun.

Most of us sort brass by weight and keep each group as a separate 'lot'. Each lot will shoot about the same in terms of group size on paper. POI will vary depending upon the rifle.
 
There is a (calculated) relationship for THIS cartridge, THIS bullet, THIS powder, THIS speed:
30-06 / IMR4895 / 168SMK /2,600fps /24"barrel
Volume_Powder_Ratio_30-06.jpg
(But I wouldn't bet your life on it)
 
I don't know how to adjust the powder load for two different volume cases to get the same poi . Could you find a great load with identical volume brass & then figure the volume percentage & then load a lower or higher volume case to the same percentage?
Basically no, you load by weight. Yes, case weight/volume has a bearing on that, as does a loose chamber over a tight chamber, but you can't really predict POI with figuring percentages, and if you don't watch the charge weight, could get into trouble. There are so many variables. MEHavey is right if you have Quickload and stick with the same caliber, I am sure it can get you close, but you will still have to stick by load data and actually shoot it on target.

There are some "rules of thumb" out there for some calibers that have been shot a ton and where shooters know to "drop the charge by "X" for every added Gr of case weight" ect, etc, but if you get to trying to figure charges by math it could get you in trouble. Nothing beats working up the load and shooting it on target. There are no shortcuts, and this is all this sounds like, looking for a shortcut.

The last one I did was trying to make bullet "B" hit where bullet "A" did in .308 using the same cases and powder. I started with the same charge weight, shot it on target, adjusted the charge as needed, and bingo. Sometimes it takes more tries.
 
Attached link is to a thread that discusses case weight vs case volume. Read the posts by Bart B. He comments that unless the outside dimensions of two cases is the same, the inside volume can not be compared. He comments that the best way to make a volume comparison is to modify a sizing die where the cases' volumes can be measured with the case in the sizing die.

Age of the case, brass spring back amount and other factors affect the internal volume of cases that are not constrained.

https://www.thehighroad.org/index.php?threads/308-v-7-62-case-capacity.819112/
 
Thanks ,I have already loaded 5 each of each weight class to my good load percent of .991 percent of case volume & since that load in my established round is still below my previously established max & , none of the test rounds go over it either , I will shoot on my next overcast or cool day this week & report back with pics & numbers ( as in chronograph). What info you have provided has been helpful , but I could still use more if someone else has tested along these lines , your results would be appreciated. Thanks again ,y'all are great & considered friends.
 
Yep, all this "advanced reloading theory" is way above my pay grade! When working up a load I use one bullet, sort the brass by headstamp, use one powder at the starting load, use bullet manufacturer's recommended OAL and go from there. I like reloading so I'll raise my powder charges in increments depending on the cartridge, and when I find a promising load I'll tweek that. After all that I may try varying bullet seating dept or different primers, but with this method I've gotten 15/16" (one at 7/8" and most hovering around 1") 4 shot groups outta my stock Ruger 308...;)

K.I.S.S....
 
Unless there is a whole lot I like about a rifle ,I'd sell it if that is the best it would do. I'm partial to .5 " or 1/2 that at 100 or give it to a grandchild.
 
Unless there is a whole lot I like about a rifle ,I'd sell it if that is the best it would do. I'm partial to .5 " or 1/2 that at 100 or give it to a grandchild.
Hi, outlaw. In all sincere honesty, and I don't mean this to be an insult because you're one of the nice guys, but if you shoot all your rifles 1/4" to 1/2" groups at 100 yards all day every day, you are far beyond everyone else on this thread. Just me being honest. The vast majority of rifles and shooters in the world are nowhere near that good, only a few on this Forum, you can be proud to be among rare company. Truly, my hat's off to ya.

If you're already shooting less than .5" groups, you don't need to worry about your OP question. You're already there.
 
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Loading is not done by percentage of case volume. Ever. Smokeless powder is not loaded by volume either.
.

Apparently you've never used Trail Boss.
 

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