Long Range .308

[LRShooting]

What do you all consider a long range rifle? Some think that anything less than a BR rifle is not really good enough to shoot 1000 yards, while others will use a regular hunting rifle platform. Is there really such a thing as being a long range rifle? To me, it seems that regardless of the rifle, if your shooting a fairly tight group, say .5 moa, then a 1000 yd shot isn't unreasonable. I seem to have this argument used against me quite a bit that if I want to shoot 1000 yds, then I really need to just get a better gun. However, I am shooting sub-moa, and I often shoot less than .5 moa. Ive been shooting W748 with a 155 gr SMK since that was all that was available out of my Savage M11 TH XP. I figure once I find some varget, 4064 or 4895 with 168 gr SMK, I should be able to do a little long range due to higher BC and a little better velocity I hope. Maybe even a little better accuracy because w748 starts to suck at anything over 43.0 gr for me. Really to low of a pressure for proper neck seal.

 

[Rob96]

While not long range, I have Rem 700 ADL Varmint. I cut the barrel to 20". With my loaf od 165gr Gameking spritzer I managed a .307" center to center group at 200yds. I am in the process of getting my turret settings at different distances for a hunt in Nebraska. My personal limit right now is 350yds.

 

[redbullitt]

I would not even keep it at .5 moa. Heck, 1 moa or even 1.5 moa will do long range business just fine within reason if you are target shooting.

Nothing wrong with that 155 grainer, you just have to get some velocity behind it. At least the Palma shooters do okay with it lol. Your w748 is pretty much right on par with varget burn rate, so I would say you are fine there too! Use what you got.

43g seems like a reasonable load to me, but I think there is more work to be done. I have used more and less 748 than that with 168 and 175 projectiles. How did you come up with your powder charge? Maybe you missed a node above that? I think you just need to do some more load development.

To be honest I find the 308 marginal on whitetail at med and longer ranges. The cartridge has enough power, but there is a lot of wind drift there… I owe it to the animal to bring the right tool for the job that gives me the most chance of a clean hit. The 308 just aint it at that range.If you misjudge any bit of wind you have a gut shot animal. No good.

Personally I'd skip the 168s if you are going long. Go right to the 175 smks or 178 amax. They do notably better at longer range. The amax bullets work great on deer too btw, much more consistent for me than the SMKS ever were.

 

[USSR]

LRShooting,

So many wrong assumptions on your part, that I hardly know where to start. Yes, there is such a thing as a LR rifle, here are a few that I have used to compete with in 1,000 yard competition:

First, a .5MOA rifle at 100 yards does not equal a .5MOA rifle at 1,000 yards. A whippy, light contour hunting rifle barrel will open up groups substantially at long range. Also, the typical factory barrel will heat up quickly and will copper foul quickly as well. Secondly, you are using the wrong powder and bullet. Nobody who is serious about LR shooting uses a ball powder - everybody uses an extruded powder of one make or another. Also, nobody uses the 168SMK for LR work. It was developed for 300 meter competition, and it's 13 degree boattail is not conducive for LR work for much beyond 600 yards. I spotted for a guy one time who tried to use it at 1,000 yards, and it was ugly. Lastly, "600+ shots on whitetail"? You would be doing a great disservice to a fine game animal by attempting such shots. Also, if you want to shoot deer with a match bullet, I would suggest the Hornady 178gr Amax bullet. Just MHO.

Don

 

[Walkalong]

Stick powders rule at long range. The 175 rules there as well. I am shooting 168s, but I haven't worked up a load with my 175s yet, and may never get the chance to shoot over 600 yards, so I am in no hurry.

And yes, some loads/rifles that shoot well up close, won't at longer range, and it doesn't have to be out to 1000 to show up.

 

[LRShooting]

So many wrong assumptions on your part, that I hardly know where to start. Yes, there is such a thing as a LR rifle, here are a few that I have used to compete with in 1,000 yard competition:

Sir, I think you misunderstood me. First of all, I said I only got w748 and 155 smks because that was all that was available at the time. I wanted varget or 4895. I would prefer varget. Two, I wouldn't do any thing past 600 unless I was for sure of my self and conditions were perfect. I haven't had the chance to really grow comfortable with my gun and ammo yet. I am still learning what the gun likes. It has had less that 200 rnds through it. Itll be awhile before I attempt such shots. However, I don't think it is a disservice to a deer. If one feels completely comfortable with it and conditions are good, there is no reason why one shouldn't unless there is a variable that would mean a inhumane kill. I have researched many forums just for this post, and alot of guys are setting their max .308 range for whitetails (some out of standard hunting rifles) at 600-800 yds. I personally would prob have a limit of 750 unless I got extremely good and things were perfect. Even a 223 will do out to 550. I know because I have popped a deer with a 60 gr V Max by Black Hills at 550 and the deer ran 20 yds, then died. I have done the same with several others at a few yards less. A 308 should do a better job than a 223, and even at 1000 yards, it has more energy than most .357 rounds at point blank range. At 600, energy is around 1000lbs. I think that sometimes, (not always, but I have personally seen people do this and have heard others rant about it) people will never say a standard hunting rifle will do the job at 1000 yards. Even if its a varmit built rifle that shoots .25 moa. Maybe its just me, but those who seem to have spend several thousand dollars on a precision rig doesn't want to admit that someone else achieved close results with a rifle under 1000$. I don't mean to generalize though, but some do.
With that cleared up, it seems that most chose a 175 smk or 178 amax with varget. For the most part, I agree with everything you said. I do kind of disagree with your light-whippy barrel statement though. Yes, itll heat up faster and its not as solid, but its cold bore shot when hunting, not shoot a couple rounds, then start firing and hope for the best. So the heating up factor is irrelevent. The light barrel opening up groups at long range I don't really understand. I can't disagree on that because I have no expierence in that aspect, but it seems that if you are shooting match grade groups at 100, 200, 300 yards, then why would a light barrel mean that you can't shoot a 1000? Remember though, I don't mean hunting at 1000, just target practice and messing around. And to all, thanks for the suggestions!

 

[back40]

.223 on whitetail at 550? how many have you shot at that range? how are you measuring the range? i find this interesting because it pretty much flies in the face of what most experienced hunters deem ethical for the cartridge.

a light whippy barrel is more about accuracy nodes than heating up. cold bore or not, just because you can hold a .25 moa group at 100 in no way means that the rifle will hold a .25 moa group at 1000.

 

[TexasPatriot.308]

I am an old grunt....qualified with an M14 and shot 500 yards with irons....nowadays, can still take out hogs and coyotes with iron sights at 300 yards plus with my Springfieldd Armory M1A ......have no intention of scoping it. the .308 can be extended to twice that yardage with the bolt action and even an M1A with good optics.

 

[Steel Horse Rider]

I shoot out to 600 yards, none of it scientific, just a 20" x 30" piece of 1/4" steel plate hanging from a frame and painted orange. I can hit it with iron sights with a Mosin, my K-31, my 6mm Remington, 7.7 Jap, 6.5 Jap, 6.5 Swede, M1, M1A, 1903A3, and most of the other .30 caliber rifles I have. It seems to me that long range shooting is a matter of simple physics but the variables of bullet shape, rotational speed, and mass will also come into play. I do not compete in any shooting competitions, I just get a kick out of seeing a 300 yard or 600 yard gong ring and swing when I hit it. As long as I can hit a head sized target at 300 yards I sleep comfortably.

 

[XSV55]

You don't have to have an expensive custom rifle to do yourself proud at long distances. Although many factors will have a bearing on accuracy, the shooter himself and proper practice is the key. Food for thought, crimping your rounds is critical to ammo accuracy. Crimping requires the burning gas pressure to build until sufficient to force the bullet out of the case. Consistent crimping will lead to consistent bullet speed and gas pressure when leaving the barrel for optimum accuracy. Not crimping allows the bullet to leave the case at random speeds due to varying fit in the case neck (slight, but meaningful at long distances). I didn't see mention of crimping it so I thought I'd mention as it's critical to accuracy at distance.

 

[splithoof]

My "long range" rifle is an AI in 300Win Mag. I also use a 40X in .308 with a 22" R-5 barrel. As stated above, stick powders rule, and 175 grain bullets in .308 do much better than any 168, in my experience. My club has a 1K range where I have tested this.
As for deer hunting IMO an individual who takes long range shots of the sort does not have much hunting experience, no matter what is written on various internet boards, gun/hunting rags, or other camp-fire bravado. I have had great success hunting big game over the past thirty-three years, and nearly all my shots are within 225 yards. Most are closer to 100. To me the skill in hunting is not only marksmanship, but more the stalk and field craft necessary to get into a position for that shot. On that note, I have seen too many hunters attempt shots from long range, mostly missing, but sometimes wounding the animal. Very few are successful, very few.

 

[B!ngo]

I'm also pretty surprised about the distances being discussed in pursuit of a white tail. I have no reason to believe but that you're an excellent target rifleman but in none of those attempts is there a risk of hurting or maiming an animal that most agree should be put down only humanely and thus only when the probability of an excellent shot overwhelms any risk of something worse.
I'd suggest that at 550 yards with a .308 (or even a more powerful cartridge) in all but the best hands raises the likelihood of such risk higher than what would seem prudent.
You (the OP) know your skills best but, as you undoubtedly know, shooting targets from a pre-planned position at the range or in a repeatable position is a far cry from the complexity that a hunter faces while there is a concomitant level of the impact of a missed shot.
B

.223 on whitetail at 550? how many have you shot at that range? how are you measuring the range? i find this interesting because it pretty much flies in the face of what most experienced hunters deem ethical for the cartridge.

a light whippy barrel is more about accuracy nodes than heating up. cold bore or not, just because you can hold a .25 moa group at 100 in no way means that the rifle will hold a .25 moa group at 1000.

 

[LRShooting]

.223 on whitetail at 550? how many have you shot at that range? how are you measuring the range? i find this interesting because it pretty much flies in the face of what most experienced hunters deem ethical for the cartridge.

a light whippy barrel is more about accuracy nodes than heating up. cold bore or not, just because you can hold a .25 moa group at 100 in no way means that the rifle will hold a .25 moa group at 1000.

I used a range finder. I probably have taken 4-5 deer this way. All does. I understand that many question this as ethical or not, but that can often be tricky to define what is "ethical." I bow hunt and alot of the deer I shoot may run 200 yards before dying. So ethical is then just defined as good shot placement and doing your best to dispatch the animal as quick as possible. Therefore, 550 yards to me with a 223 is deemed ethical, especially since they are dying in a much shorter time period. I am confident of this and don't worry to much about it. However, I do take care to calculate everything and don't shoot if there is much wind. At 600 yds, a 223 is traveling at roughly 1300fps (don't take my word for it, but I am pretty sure it is close). It doesn't create the hydraulic shock that it does at closer ranges, but it dumps every bit of its energy into the chest when it hits though. Therefore, I would consider it more ethical than archery tackle. Also, when you said experienced, I don't know what you consider that to be, but I have taken countless numbers of deer. I probably average 8 a year. Some years are bad, some are good. 22 is my max so far (and nobody I doubt believes it unless they live in my community because, well, Ill leave how old I was out of it). We have a deer problem around here. They simply decimate whole parts of our corn fields. Ive gotten a deer every year since I was 8, so thats almost 10 years experience now. Not alot compared to some guys, but with what we are talking about, numbers count since every kill means a well placed shot, and I therefore learn where to shoot and the reaction of bullets at distances on the deer.

 

[LRShooting]

My "long range" rifle is an AI in 300Win Mag. I also use a 40X in .308 with a 22" R-5 barrel. As stated above, stick powders rule, and 175 grain bullets in .308 do much better than any 168, in my experience. My club has a 1K range where I have tested this.
As for deer hunting IMO an individual who takes long range shots of the sort does not have much hunting experience, no matter what is written on various internet boards, gun/hunting rags, or other camp-fire bravado. I have had great success hunting big game over the past thirty-three years, and nearly all my shots are within 225 yards. Most are closer to 100. To me the skill in hunting is not only marksmanship, but more the stalk and field craft necessary to get into a position for that shot. On that note, I have seen too many hunters attempt shots from long range, mostly missing, but sometimes wounding the animal. Very few are successful, very few.

+1 on that. However, saying that people who take long range shots are not experienced as a hunter is backwards in my case. As in the above comment, I have shot quite a few deer. Probably 80 deer since I started. Alot of guys will say that I am inexperienced because of my age. But it depends on if experience means getting one deer a year for 80 years, maybe 2 for 40, or if it just depends on how many deer you have gotten through tracking, setting up position, stalking, and walking. To tell you the truth, my shots on average are much closer than yours because I do alot of walking and driving around here. I only set up in the evenings and mornings. Even then, they are usually only about 100-150 yards away.
I definetly agree on the fact that hunting is more about the pursuit of the game. I have heard it put this way. A target shooter tries to see how far he can hit his game from, while a hunter tries to see how close he can get to his game. Nothing like setting next to a tree and having a deer close enough to touch.

 

[gotigers]

I am a year into my first .308 bolt. It is a factory Rem 700 5R with a Vortex Viper PST 4-16x50. I shoot Federal Gold Medal Match 175gr SMKs and home brewed 178gr Amax.

It shoots that ammo .3 to .7 MOA, mostly around .6 MOA, depending on different variable at 100 yards. At 600 yards it is easy to keep them in the 9 ring. I don't get to do it much, with practice that will get better. I have shot steel at 1000 yards. It was easy enough to hit steel at 1000, but I would need a better scope to shoot for groups at 1000.

 

[LRShooting]

I'm also pretty surprised about the distances being discussed in pursuit of a white tail. I have no reason to believe but that you're an excellent target rifleman but in none of those attempts is there a risk of hurting or maiming an animal that most agree should be put down only humanely and thus only when the probability of an excellent shot overwhelms any risk of something worse.
I'd suggest that at 550 yards with a .308 (or even a more powerful cartridge) in all but the best hands raises the likelihood of such risk higher than what would seem prudent.
You (the OP) know your skills best but, as you undoubtedly know, shooting targets from a pre-planned position at the range or in a repeatable position is a far cry from the complexity that a hunter faces while there is a concomitant level of the impact of a missed shot.
B

Yea. As I mentioned before, Its difficult to judge on how ethical something is. As Ive gotten older, I have started to feel almost sad when a deer is suffering. When I say suffering, I mean shot, but not a good shot. Often times, a deer will get hit in a bad spot like in the lower back and makes a cry that is horrible to hear. This isn't at long range even, its in quick shots or through brush and it occurs to even the best hunters around here. So being ethical is definetly a big factor when I hunt, hence the reason for even making such a thread. Some would argue to say I am a bad hunter for even attempting to take a shot past 500 yards, while others would argue that it is fine to an extent if the shooter is capable as well as the gun. It all just depends. Its a good discussion topic though.

 

[Walkalong]

The range is not a question as much as deer "may run 200 yards before dying".

If you are concerned about the deer suffering, kill it more humanely, whatever the distance.

 

[lykoris]

XSV55,

I would have thought uniform neck tension is preferred to crimping

 

[primalmu]

As far as I know, from all the reading I've done, crimping is one of those things that works for some rifles/people and not for others.

 

[USSR]

You don't have to have an expensive custom rifle to do yourself proud at long distances. Although many factors will have a bearing on accuracy, the shooter himself and proper practice is the key. Food for thought, crimping your rounds is critical to ammo accuracy. Crimping requires the burning gas pressure to build until sufficient to force the bullet out of the case. Consistent crimping will lead to consistent bullet speed and gas pressure when leaving the barrel for optimum accuracy. Not crimping allows the bullet to leave the case at random speeds due to varying fit in the case neck (slight, but meaningful at long distances). I didn't see mention of crimping it so I thought I'd mention as it's critical to accuracy at distance.

I'm afraid you've got that completely backwards. In fact, you should never mention crimping and accuracy in the same sentence. Crimping is NEVER done for long range rifle competition, as it detracts from accuracy. Consistent neck tension (among other things) is what wins rifle matches. I shot in 1,000 yard competition for 6 years, and to a man, nobody on the firing line crimped their ammo.

Don

 

[chaser_2332]

NO crimp!

 

[d2wing]

It can be done, but should it be done. I don't think so but you seem committed to doing it. I don't think it is ethical and I have never thought bow hunting was very ethical. I cringe when they talk of lost deer. The odds are against a clean kill. At much over 400 yards even 1 MOA rifle becomes more than 1 MOA and any error in range estimation, hold, wind, cant, or any number of variables comes in to play. Then you want use a target bullet? Maybe that is a wash. Guys can claim anything they want, and I will regard them not ethical. I don't think that shooting deer as vermin is sporting either. Do what you will but expect my blessing as a sportsman.

 

[itsa pain]

As far as I know, from all the reading I've done, crimping is one of those things that works for some rifles/people and not for others.

Not if you use the Lee factory crimp die. The most accurate ammo I ever shot was crimped with that die

 

[LRShooting]

It can be done, but should it be done. I don't think so but you seem committed to doing it. I don't think it is ethical and I have never thought bow hunting was very ethical. I cringe when they talk of lost deer. The odds are against a clean kill. At much over 400 yards even 1 MOA rifle becomes more than 1 MOA and any error in range estimation, hold, wind, cant, or any number of variables comes in to play. Then you want use a target bullet? Maybe that is a wash. Guys can claim anything they want, and I will regard them not ethical. I don't think that shooting deer as vermin is sporting either. Do what you will but expect my blessing as a sportsman.

I don't see deer as vermin, only that they do a lot of damage. You would understand when they destroy 15k worth of corn in just one field..... And I don't want to use a target bullet, but they are designed for better accuracy. I would hate to use a hunting bullet that may not have as much accuracy at the ranges I want. Put it this way, I am not going to try and move away from deer to shoot long range, but a lot of the fields around here are wide open and flat for a mile. You can't exactly sneak up on them. As far as bow hunting and me as a sportsman, why would I need your blessing anyways? Not to be a hypocrite, but you go around with a rifle and shoot a deer at 200 yards without even getting them a chance, yet bowhunters are being put down when they have to get within 30yds before shots really become available and even then, deer are often spooked before a shot can be taken. If everybody hunted solely with a bow, there would be a lot more deer left. I also rifle hunt though, so I don't have anything wrong with it. I just think that you shouldn't go around saying bow hunting is unethical without first realizing how many more deer you kill with a gun as compared to if you had a bow.

 

[LRShooting]

The range is not a question as much as deer "may run 200 yards before dying".

If you are concerned about the deer suffering, kill it more humanely, whatever the distance.

No true hunter wishes a deer to run that far. Even if it was seen as cruel, it wouldn't be iin the hunters best interest to let a deer run that far. The difficulty of recovering game goes up exponentially as they get farther away. Even heart shots will sometimes result in 50 yds before the deer dies. Lung shots can vary up to much longer distances. Trust me, I don't mean for any deer to suffer any longer than they have to. I usually try to get a second shot in if possible.