I have a recent interest in hearing sniper stories from military conflicts in the past. But if my question is out of line feel free to delete. I know kills have been documented with the big bores 50bmg/338 lapua over 2000 yards and 7.62/30-06 over 1500 yards, but does anybody know the longest confirmed kill with the 5.56?
Longest .223/5.56 military kill
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herrwalther
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Key Marine and Army units in Fallujah in the 2006 time frame were under investigation for taking out targets using M16s at 500 meters with headshots. While I am not sure the longest kill is, I am sure it is around that distance.
It seems the longest kills have been in the 600-700 yard range. Nothing seems to be written in stone because obviously that distance isn't all that impressive compared to the heavier calibers and what they can do. But it certainly would be possible to kill someone at much longer distances despite what so many naysayers think. I looked around the net and saw literally hundreds of really stupid comments on the subject talking about how a .223 round has no chance of hitting anything at 1000 yards. That's pretty stupid. They will not match the accuracy of heavier bullets at that distance but they certainly can't be shot fairly accurate at 1000 yards. Check out this video of a Savage 12 shooting 1000 yards in very windy conditions.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H-l5fq8oxs
Obviously it took a while to get the wind figured out and probably a good while to figure out the drop too. But it's possible to hit a man at 1000 yards. That does not mean it has been done. I have no evidence of that. I do have evidence of varmints being hit at that distance.
It should be pointed out that a Savage 12 is a long range shooter. A military issued AR-15 or M4 isn't. It matters. I've shot AR-10's with .308 rounds at 500 yards and they didn't come close to matching what my .223 Savage 12 was doing. It shot the AR enough to know it just wasn't ever going to be as accurate. They certainly do make some AR's that are accurate but the military doesn't give those out in 5.56 form AFAIK. If they want a long range shooter they give him something more likely to result in a kill if he hits his target at long range. It's likely a crap shoot whether a .223 will even kill a person if you did shoot them at 1000 yards. The round is going to be very low on energy by that point. Ground hogs may not be a problem but hitting a man in a vital spot is another story. AFAIK it has never happened. It probably isn't even tried because there are better choices available for a shot like that.
Again I couldn't find any listing of long range shots with a .223/5.56. I heard people talking about 600 yard kills. There is nothing specific even for that. I know my own .223 is capable of hitting targets at 500 yards consistently. That's the farthest distance I have a place to shoot. I could be shooting 600 yards if I was back at my old club I guess. There's another club locally that has a 600 yard range but apparently you have to be a member for a couple of years to even get to shoot there. I'll wait until I can get back home to my old club.
Good luck finding data on .223 kills and be sure to let us know if you find anything solid.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=2H-l5fq8oxs
Obviously it took a while to get the wind figured out and probably a good while to figure out the drop too. But it's possible to hit a man at 1000 yards. That does not mean it has been done. I have no evidence of that. I do have evidence of varmints being hit at that distance.
It should be pointed out that a Savage 12 is a long range shooter. A military issued AR-15 or M4 isn't. It matters. I've shot AR-10's with .308 rounds at 500 yards and they didn't come close to matching what my .223 Savage 12 was doing. It shot the AR enough to know it just wasn't ever going to be as accurate. They certainly do make some AR's that are accurate but the military doesn't give those out in 5.56 form AFAIK. If they want a long range shooter they give him something more likely to result in a kill if he hits his target at long range. It's likely a crap shoot whether a .223 will even kill a person if you did shoot them at 1000 yards. The round is going to be very low on energy by that point. Ground hogs may not be a problem but hitting a man in a vital spot is another story. AFAIK it has never happened. It probably isn't even tried because there are better choices available for a shot like that.
Again I couldn't find any listing of long range shots with a .223/5.56. I heard people talking about 600 yard kills. There is nothing specific even for that. I know my own .223 is capable of hitting targets at 500 yards consistently. That's the farthest distance I have a place to shoot. I could be shooting 600 yards if I was back at my old club I guess. There's another club locally that has a 600 yard range but apparently you have to be a member for a couple of years to even get to shoot there. I'll wait until I can get back home to my old club.
Good luck finding data on .223 kills and be sure to let us know if you find anything solid.
MtnCreek
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I bet there were some really long shots made with 5.56 in recent years with SAW's and even Mk12's being used for suppressive fire.
HankB
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Interesting way of putting things - they were "under investigation" for killing bad guys? This makes it sound like there was some nutty prohibition in place . . . care to elaborate on this?herrwalther said:
stonecutter2
Member
Under investigation for what - taking out targets?
Under investigation for ignoring the rules of engagement and using the locals for sportshooting. I guess some folks think it's fine to treat all of the folks in the middle east like prairie dogs. Just targets of opportunity whether they be male, female, old folks, children...
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
There was a report in the first 'Book of the AR-15' of MSG Robert Kolesar making a one shot kill at a lasered 705 meters (770 yards) near Baghdad in 2004.
At night!
Light from burning buildings and vehicles provided enough light.
Rifle was a standard A2 with a Burris 4x compact scope mounted on the carry handle.
Ammo was M855 GI issue.
MSG Kolesar had been a member of the USAR rifle team for 20 years.
Not your average rifleman for sure!
rc
At night!
Light from burning buildings and vehicles provided enough light.
Rifle was a standard A2 with a Burris 4x compact scope mounted on the carry handle.
Ammo was M855 GI issue.
MSG Kolesar had been a member of the USAR rifle team for 20 years.
Not your average rifleman for sure!
rc
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50 Shooter
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Some people need to read before they accuse innocent people...
The investigation showed that with the addition of optics on the rifles, Marines were able to make longer and better shots. They weren't shooting people like they were prairie dogs! Unless you think an insurgent shooting at you with an AK is one.
The investigation showed that with the addition of optics on the rifles, Marines were able to make longer and better shots. They weren't shooting people like they were prairie dogs! Unless you think an insurgent shooting at you with an AK is one.
herrwalther
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Read what I put gentlemen. Taking out targets with HEADSHOTS. The purpose of the investigations were to determine if soldiers and Marines were executing targets at close range. The upper brass took into account that the military trains to hit center mass. But if only there head is up over a wall or roof, well you take your shot. Pun fully intended.
Ankeny said:
Whole nother can of worms there. Collateral damage is unavoidable in many situations.
50 Shooter said:
They did find that. Marines issue far more magnified optics than the Army does. They also train to shoot farther than the Army.
The 5.56 round is very capable of making 1000 yard shots, as is proven regularly by CMP & F-class shooters. And while it is certainly no ball of fire at that range and is also significantly affected by the wind, a heavy bullet load will carry energy in excess of a .22 magnum and still has the potential to be lethal.
Do a search for DMR/SDMR Designated Marksman Rifles, M16 based versions have been issued in a number of variations for quite a few years now. The AMU version is very similar to how a match AR is set up and shoots quite well. Gun writer David Fortier who is an accomplished CMP shooter has been active in helping train service members in long range shooting with these as well as their issued service weapons and has written of some personal getting hits with even M4's at 700 yards.
IIRC the military generally considers these weapons to be effective to about 600 yards.
It's been several years since I read the book but I remember reading in Shooter: The Autobiography of the Top-Ranked Marine Sniper about a Marine that wanted his help suppressing insurgents because his M-16A4 wasn't doing a good enough job at the range. The author said something to the effect of their were six enemy firing and the Marine had already killed three of them at 900 yards.
I will have to re-read the book to make verify that my memory is correct about the details though.
I will have to re-read the book to make verify that my memory is correct about the details though.
Thermactor
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At those distances what kind of energy does the 223 have? Wouldn't it become pathetic like a 22LR at those extreme ranges?
I think it depends somewhat on the load. For longer distance, the Mk262 loads are preferred, which is a 77 gr open tipped match bullet.
As was metioned in passing, there have been a number of special purpose rifles, standard M16's and M4's arent the only game around. The M16 based guns with match grade barrels, free float handguards, match quality triggers and good quality glass can do some pretty good work at distance. The standard guns can do suprisingly well from most accounts, but the accuracy upgrades in gun and ammo helps.
I havent ever looking into it in detail, but I believe Travis Haley was making an impression at 600-800 yards at the battle of Najaf in 2004.
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Crowcifier666
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Thermactor wrote:
Pathetic 22LR? Would you stand in front of one at 500 yards? A hit is a hit, whether it puts em down or not, is another story.
Pathetic 22LR? Would you stand in front of one at 500 yards? A hit is a hit, whether it puts em down or not, is another story.
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george burns
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Not as long as the bullet has the power to still shoot fairly flat . We would have to know the drop and range corrections needed to hit the target from any given range. Also are they 1x7 twist or 1x9 twist in general? Min is 1x9.
d2wing
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When we qualified with the M-14 we shot pop-up targets at 600 meters. Qualifying with the M-16 was only 400 meters but it was very easy to shoot accurately. Sight in was under 1.5 MOA. I don't see why an expert shot could not make hits at that range. I am pretty sure that there would have been kills at that range and greater but I doubt many got measured. Not to my knowledge anyway.
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
Say what now???
You ever get shot with a .22 you won't think 'pathetic' I can assure you!!
I got shot in the right leg 45 years ago by a .22 target pistol and the bullet had already bounced off a concrete floor before it hit me.
I'm her to tell ya, it felt like somebody hit my leg with a baseball bat instantly.
Then, it really started to hurt a few seconds later!!!
Pathetic maybe, until you been shot with one!!!
rc
1911 guy
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I might be wrong, but something sticks in my head about an incident in Iraq. A Marine was on a highway overpass and returning fire from insurgents. He'd put one down but was having problems with the remainder. When support arrived, they determined the range to be just over 800 meters. M16 and an ACOG, if I remember right.
Nom de Forum
Member
The longest range for 5.56 kill is a hit to the head at over 1 mile.
I figured it had enough power but it isn't exactly overwhelming at that distance. I never said it couldn't be done BTW. I just don't know of it happening.
I didn't know that. I thought the designated marksman AR's were AR-10's that fired .308 rounds. But I'm certainly not an expert on the subject.
MIL-DOT
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I'm gonna guess half a mile straight up, then half a mile straight back down, at an Arab wedding ?
Not talking about collateral damage. Talking about the indictments, convictions, and lower level disciplinary actions as a result of sport hunting people. It's no big deal. I just threw it out to the forum because I know of one incident that involved some "distance wagers".
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