Longest .223/5.56 military kill

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Cee Zee said:
I didn't know that. I thought the designated marksman AR's were AR-10's that fired .308 rounds. But I'm certainly not an expert on the subject.

On the cheap, SDM (Squad Designated Marksman) are given M16A4s with an ACOG and bipod mounted. The extra barrel length over the shorter M4 squeezes out a bit more range. Most literature put the M4 at 550 meters and M16 length at 600 for effective range.
 
Most literature put the M4 at 550 meters and M16 length at 600 for effective range.

That's pretty much common knowledge. It's whether the round is effective of distances up to 1000 yards that have people wondering. I've seen video of people shooting targets at 1200 yards + with a .223. Again whether or not it would kill someone at that distance is going to depend a lot on where they are hit.
 
Originally Posted by Nom de Forum
The longest range for 5.56 kill is a hit to the head at over 1 mile.

Do we have more info on this?

I am still working on that. I think it has occurred more than once.

MIL-DOT - I'm gonna guess half a mile straight up, then half a mile straight back down, at an Arab wedding ?

The O.P. asked about a military kill. Are you referring to an Arab Military Wedding?:evil:
 
Cee Zee said:
That's pretty much common knowledge.

It would surprise you what is and isn't common knowledge. I only mention it for those that do not know. The effective range testing helps us to know that velocity drops off rather quickly after 600 meters with M855 or 855A1. Shooting at that distance would almost certainly need a head shot to be lethal. In many cases on my deployment, targets were taken out with something other than the M4/M16 around 700 meters or so. Usually a M24 or M82 depending on range.
 
USAav8r said:
No, not just military related. Most any wedding over there involves lots of gunfire, lots of tracers.

Not just weddings. Funerals, births, important prayers, Eids, Ramadan. I think they made up something new everyday.
 
It would surprise you what is and isn't common knowledge. I only mention it for those that do not know.

Actually I should have said it was common knowledge on this board but probably not in the general public. Still there are always people who are just now learning this stuff. I wasn't criticizing you for posting it. I was just making the point that people here want to know if the round has been used effectively out to 1000 yards or so. It's not that we don't need to hear the info given out by the military etc..
 
SOF wish list, 5.56mm ......

About 3/4 mo ago I read a US media article saying a compact, concealable sniper rifle/weapon system was requested by US tier one/SOF units. :uhoh:
The caliber or format was not mandated but a 5.56x45mm might be on the list.
I'm not quite sure how potent or ideal a compact 5.56mm spec ops rifle could be.
To me, the 6.8x40mm or new .300aacblackout could do much better as a marksmanship or spec ops caliber in a SBR. The ballistics for the new .300aac-blackout look good for surpressed rifles. :D
MoH recipient(postumous) MSG Randy Shugart(US Army, SFOD-1) always packed a 7.62mm M14 over the M16 5.56x45mm saying he liked the power & down range ballistics better. Shugart was KIA during Operation Restore Hope(10/1993).

It should be noted too, the E-KIA "record" by the army sniper from Canada in Afganistan, 2002 & held for years; was a lucky shot. :D
The .50BMG bullet bounced up off the ground & struck a enemy combatant. Even the army sniper said the .50BMG shot was rare & couldn't be done again.
 
Maximum Effective Range of the 5.56

Good discussion folks!

Back in the early 70's, the Maximum Effective Range (MER) of the M-16 was listed (by the Army) as being 480 yards. Marines, being a bit put off by this Mickey Mattel gun, were shooting at 500 yards for qualification with iron sites. Since that time, Marine (if not the Army) have gone to bull barrels, heavier weighted bullets, improved powders, the new Open Tipped Match (OTM) cartridges (to penetrate windshields - needed the Geneva Convention to approve that one!) and tightened up on the quality of the service rifles, issued combat scopes, trained designated marksman whom they issued upgraded M-14s.

On one base, I noticed that two rifle (500 yard) ranges were almost facing each other. The Northern one (I'll call Range A) was facing Southwest while the Southern (I'll call Range B) one was facing Northeast, but actual flight path of bullets from each range would only intersect the flight path of the other range's round at about 30 degrees off set and not head-on. I figure closest these two ranges were to each other was around 1700 1900 yards. Firing points from one to the other range (at least from the 300 yard lines of both respective ranges) was closer to 2,000 yards (about 1 nautical mile).

What came up was an investigation due to the fact that one shooter, in the prone position (on Range B), was struck by a bullet that no one heard fired on that range. Subject individual was struck in the back just below their neck. The bullet pierced the skin and lay just under the skin but did not penetrate the muscle layer below. So, this range (B) with the wounded shooter believed that the other range (A) had fired it, since no one on that range had fired a rifle at that point.

Now I won't go into the hoopla and official jargon that was bantered about in the official report which I considered a whitewash. My personal feelings from what I know and seen, I believe Range A was commencing fire when this happened, so shots heard would have been expected. However, anyone familiar with the M-16/AR-15 or M-1 or M-14 will understand that sometimes the bolts slam home on their own! At least not intentional. While slam fires are rare, they are not impossible and my guess is that it was either a slam fire or the trigger finger of the shooter going through a stress reaction. The maximum range of a 5.56 (55 grain bullet) is about 2000 yards or about the same as a .22 bullet both being fired from a rifle.

So, The M16 Rifle, using a 55 grain bullet, backed by a qualified shooter using iron sights, is known to be able to hit a target, most of the time, at 500 yards and be lethal.

At 2000 yards, the 5.56 can and will pierce skin on a human being. M855 will actually penetrate a heavy layer of clothing but not serious armor.

Keep in mind, the military also used to qualify people with the M-14 7.62 NATO on 500 yard (known distance or KD) ranges.

So, a carbine has a MER of about 400 yards, using iron sights with an average qualified shooter. Shorter barrel, shorter sight radius, less acceleration of bullet and is still lethal.

So, the question is: what is the maximum range a lethal shot has been taken?
My next question would be: what were the qualifications of the shooter, what was and what modifications had been made to his or hers platform, what was their ammunition and what sighting device did they use to achieve this lethal accuracy and what was the weather like at the time the shot was taken?

If Sgt Eagle-eye makes a 700 yard kill using an M-4 carbine, that is great! I am sure he is an expert rifleman because I do not think I could do that!
However, if he is a military Marksman (lowest rating for qualification) and was using a standard GI issue M-4 with a ABC IseeEm scope, that would be helpful because now I know what I can do when I go out for hunting Wiley Coyote.:)
 
Texas Navy said:
The maximum range of a 5.56 (55 grain bullet) is about 2000 yards or about the same as a .22 bullet both being fired from a rifle.

This makes sense. Because (if I recall, I don't have any of my manuals in front of me) the burnout distance for the M196 tracer round is 2000 or 2200 meters. Somewhere around there. This is an important number to remember for "painting" or pointing out targets at range for other units. Tracer burnout distance not to be confused with maximum effective distance, in regards to lethality, of the M4 or M16.

RustyShackelford said:
To me, the 6.8x40mm or new .300aacblackout could do much better as a marksmanship or spec ops caliber in a SBR. The ballistics for the new .300aac-blackout look good for surpressed rifles.

I highly doubt that any specialty cartridge would be used, even if it is a "Tier 1" unit. The military likes to stick with ammunition commonly available with surrounding units to simplify logistics, which is why they have been pig headed to replace the M4/M16 and M9 weapons. More than likely they will go with an even shorter and lighter M14 EBR variant.
 
longest range shot I ever made with a M16A2 in the Army was 800 yards.
This was on a M60 machinegun range, in peacetime , under no stress , but only to win the bet.
In combat my hits were at much closer ranges.
Andy
 
Back in the days BT (before tri-focals) I was sent to a range at Bragg with a dozen or so other guys, a rack of 16's and told to dispose of several thousands of rounds. The only target anyone could reliably hit was the 50 meter target on full auto. The guns were too hot to touch but I wrapped a shirt around the forearm, held on the tree top above the 300 meter target and knocked it down. That was my longest shot with a 16. AR's have come a long way since Vietnam but I'm still not a fan. I think on a still day 600 yds. would be doable now.
 
AR's have come a long way since Vietnam

AR's aren't the only way to shoot a .223 round. There are quite a few bolt action .223 rifles around now. I don't know of any that are military weapons but I do know what they can do. I've had no trouble at all hitting a target at 500 yards but that's only when the wind isn't crazy. Any sustained wind over 10 mph makes my shots go all over the place with my .223 rifle. Heavier bullets aren't as bad but they drop more obviously. Still I'm sure 600 yards would be well within the range of a .223 round with the right AR. I have little doubt I could hit a target at 600 yards with my rifle but I have never had the chance to find out. I hope to have that chance before too much longer. Maybe my wife will get a job back near our house and we can move back home and I'll be close to the gun club again. And they have a new 600 yard range now.

I don't doubt it will be tougher to read the wind at 600 yards but I will be looking at a range that's all down a holler now where the old range is on top of a ridge that was strip mined. There will almost certainly be less wind in the holler and what wind is there won't be blowing straight in which to me is harder to deal with than a side to side wind.

I've shot lots of 5" groups at 500 yards though. So if the power is there I'm sure it would kill a person at that distance and I'm almost certain there is enough power to do the job. I'm no expert on killing people and don't want to be. But we might all be forced into just that one day. Who knows. I'd rather have a chance at getting it done instead of being a target that can't shoot back. I do have my 30.06 I guess but it isn't as accurate as my .223. It could be if I replaced the barrel I think. Someone mucked up the crown on that rifle. It doesn't shoot bad but it doesn't shoot like my .223.
 
When I fired an A2 in a Army post match after zeroing it, (It was a borrowed rifle from an infantry unit a friend was the Armorer for, my issue rifle being an A1) and with minimal Armorer set-up (I set the pull at 4.5# exactly, minimum by reg) I was able to keep them in the vital zone (9's, 10's, and x's) consistantly at 600m with M855 issue ammo. I should think a good shooter with more trigger time on an A2 or a DMR SR-25 would have no problems with headshots at that range. I didn't attempt them, as they would have ruined my score.
 
2000 yds from a .22lr! That's FUNNY, man.

Gee I don't remember him claiming anything about a .22LR round. What he said is that's how far a .22 caliber bullet (as in a .223 bullet which is a .22 caliber bullet) will travel before it completely stops under perfect conditions. No one said a .22LR could kill at 2000 rounds. Think a little before you post. Do you really think someone is so stupid they believe a .22LR will kill at 2000 yards???
 
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Back in Post #21 I wrote that a head shot resulted in a kill at more than a mile and in Post #28 that I think it occurred more than once. Well I can't find documentation of something I heard about a grunt in Iraq with a M249 unintentionally firing past his aiming point. What I was told is that because he was firing up toward a roof top the elevation of his muzzle caused rounds to fall on to a group of Iraqis approximately two kilometers away. Until this thread I never really tried to follow-up on this story because when you are drinking with buddies and hear this type of thing you rarely do. I remember at the time thinking it possible since people have been killed here in Arizona by bullets that jackasses have fired into the air on New Year's Day and July 4th. We now have a specific law due to this that is referred to as Shannon's Law. Shannon was a young women killed by an unaimed bullet fired into the air. As posted by numan (winner of the most prolific poster on the first day of THR membership award :D) it does not take much energy to create a casualty producing wound. Numan indicated 40 ftlbs of energy although I think 58 ftlbs and 73 ftlbs have also been cited elsewhere. So while I still think it possible for a 1+ mile kill to have occurred, though unintentionally, I unfortunately after much searching cannot find documentation of an incident in Iraq.
 
I heard about a grunt in Iraq with a M249 unintentionally firing past his aiming point. What I was told is that because he was firing up toward a roof top the elevation of his muzzle caused rounds to fall on to a group of Iraqis approximately two kilometers away.

We had some Afghans claim the same thing. We were test firing a new Mk19, firing into a minefield. A local elder came to use the next day with some rusted 40mm rounds he claimed came through his roof from us. Problem was his house was over 4km away and in the opposite direction we were firing. Also had a ton of kids brought into our aid station who were injured "by falling rounds" from Arab weddings/funerals etc. But the rounds were never in the head or shoulders, where you would expect them from falling rounds while playing outside. They were always in the legs or torso with straight lines in..

Some units mounted M16s to remote controlled CROW systems on top of vehicles. Have never seen it done myself as it is usually heavy weapons in the turret. The CROW takes much of the human error out of firing a weapon so it can allow for farther ranges. If anyone has ever seen how the movie "Shooter" it is pretty similar to the remote system used.
 
...Since that time, Marine (if not the Army) have gone to bull barrels, heavier weighted bullets, improved powders, the new Open Tipped Match (OTM) cartridges (to penetrate windshields - needed the Geneva Convention to approve that one!)

The Geneva Convention is about the treatment of prisoners of war. The Hague Convention covers what weapons of war are humane and inhumane. There is no international body for a nation to apply to for approval/disapproval of bullet type. The US determines for itself whether or not the OTM is in accordance with the Hague
 
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