Looking for a LEVER in .45 LC - your recommendations???
- Thread starter Hokkmike
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rodinal220
Member
I have a 90s vintage Marlin 1894 24" Cowboy when they first came out in 45 Colt. It has been extremely accurate and reliable. Its a joy to shoot with CAS type loads, I use a 250gr LFN over 6.5gr WIN 231, doing about 1015 on average. I will never sell it.
Charlie98
Member
Straight up, 100% My brother's Winchester Trapper I mentioned...? I joke that it's a Glock chamber... the brass comes out so blown out.
troy fairweather
Member
I'd stick to sammi spec with that,
DocRock
member
Your revolver is made by Uberti and proofed under the CIP to 16,000 psi Max Pressure. Loads should not exceed the level to which it was proofed (which is just slightly above SAAMI MAP).
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Hokkmike
Member
Your knowledges exceeds mine. Translated does this mean factory off the shelf only? (I don't reload anyway)
army_eod
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Pretty much cowboy shooting loads
Steve Milbocker
Member
For what it’s worth I killed the buck in my post with Fiocci Cowboy Action loads. Hit in the boiler room, complete pass through he went 75 yards. About what I’ve seen many times with this shot placement. So I guess if you need more horse power from the 45 Colt you probably should stay clear of the toggle link 1873 but if the 45Colt in its intended loading tickles your fancy you will love this rifle
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Hokkmike
Member
Yeah, that is all I have been shooting so far........
DocRock
member
It's not "cowboy shooting loads". It's any 45LC ammunition loaded to SAAMI spec (slightly lower than CIP) ie most factory ammunition. No +P, no "Ruger Only" but any factory ammo that is not marked as higher pressure will be fine.
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Hokkmike
Member
Oh, OK - thanks.
Tommygunn
Member
Yes, stamped on the barrel. Miroku makes rifles for Winchester, which is really only a "legal entity" now, and does not make its own firearms as they used to in New Haven, Connecticut.
Miroku does make excellent rifles, though they are $$expensive $$.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
It really depends on what you like and what you want to do with it. Just like revolvers, there's a broad spectrum of capability. My biggest issue with .45 leverguns is the oversized chambers and that is almost universal. I had a wonderful little Miroku made Winchester that had blow-by with anything but Ruger only loads. I will list them according to strength but most will have a slow twist barrel and won't feed long, heavyweight cast bullets anyway. So without a specific purpose in mind, I'll be very general. Bear in mind this is all concerning modern guns.
1860/1866 - Standard pressure loads only. Comparable to pre-WWII Colt SAA loads.
1873 - Brian Pearce says these are safe to 21,000psi. You'll find Pearce's Tier II data in this range. Comparable to post-war Colt SAA and replica loads. These guns are typically also available as .45ACP convertibles.
1894's (Winchester, Marlin and probably Henry) - 40,000psi. Safe for loads slightly heavier than typical "Ruger only" data.
1892's - Multiple sources claim these are good to 50,000psi. The tidy little Browning action is the strongest of the pistol cartridge leverguns. As is his 1886 for rifle cartridges. Very little was done to adapt it to the .454 and .480 cartridges. There's a good bit of data in this range, including Pearce but much of it is with heavy bullets that will usually require tuning, if not a new barrel. Most 1892's are 1-30" twist.
1860/1866 - Standard pressure loads only. Comparable to pre-WWII Colt SAA loads.
1873 - Brian Pearce says these are safe to 21,000psi. You'll find Pearce's Tier II data in this range. Comparable to post-war Colt SAA and replica loads. These guns are typically also available as .45ACP convertibles.
1894's (Winchester, Marlin and probably Henry) - 40,000psi. Safe for loads slightly heavier than typical "Ruger only" data.
1892's - Multiple sources claim these are good to 50,000psi. The tidy little Browning action is the strongest of the pistol cartridge leverguns. As is his 1886 for rifle cartridges. Very little was done to adapt it to the .454 and .480 cartridges. There's a good bit of data in this range, including Pearce but much of it is with heavy bullets that will usually require tuning, if not a new barrel. Most 1892's are 1-30" twist.
It may have been true 30yrs ago when Linebaugh wrote that article but it certainly is not today. The .45 comes close to .44 performance but does not exceed it. In top loads, both cartridges can utilize 355/360gr bullets but the .44 maintains a 50-100fps velocity advantage across the board.
And none of those contain data to support the claim that the .45Colt beats the .44Mag.
CraigC
Sixgun Nut
Common misconception. Standard pressure loads run up to 14,000psi and that gets a 250gr over 900fps. Cowboy loads are typically 200fps slower. Any modern SAA or replica is good to 21,000psi, or another 200fps with the same bullet.
Tommygunn
Member
The same 21,000 psi as in the 1873, no doubt. Cimarron is Uberti with the distributor's name on the barrel.
Another vote for the Rossi 92. Mine was smooth and accurate. This very rifle is made to handle the 454 Casull. I shot everything from 200g to 415 grain slugs with it, and took a bull elk with the latter at 75 yards. LilGun is a super good powder for it. The bull killer had 1250fps using modified Casull cases, very close to the buffalo loads of yore...
My wife’s Rossi ‘92, .357 Mag, bought new, when we became interested in CAS, but then stored, unused, for a long time, before finally being fired, because we never actually started CAS, is bad about feeding the cartridge at too steep of an angle, and double-feeding the next two cartridges. This reinforced the universal caveat, of the need to test a firearm before trusting it. Until we can get Steve’s Gunz, or another ‘smith, to look at it, it is just a single-shot plinker. (Or, I just might preserve its single-shot status, perhaps blocking the magazine tube, to use it as a starter rifle, for young grandsons.)
I briefly owned a Miroku-chester ‘92, .45 Colt, perhaps in the late Nineties, which I cannot recall whether I bought new or pre-owned. It would not reliably feed anything.
The above examples have, understandably, made us shy about trusting revolver-cartridge lever rifles. Even so, we recently bought his-and-hers Winchester ‘94 AE Trappers, .45 Colt, pre-owned, at about the same time. (The simultaneous availability, at the same large big-city gun shop, was a rare coincidence.). Mine is pre-crossbolt, because a crossbolt safety operates in the “wrong” direction, for a lefty. We will see how these function. If these vex us, we may well stick with rifle-cartridge lever rifles.
The ‘94 Winchesters are not as slick-actioned as a ‘92, but we were already accustomed to a .30 WCF ‘94.
I briefly owned a Miroku-chester ‘92, .45 Colt, perhaps in the late Nineties, which I cannot recall whether I bought new or pre-owned. It would not reliably feed anything.
The above examples have, understandably, made us shy about trusting revolver-cartridge lever rifles. Even so, we recently bought his-and-hers Winchester ‘94 AE Trappers, .45 Colt, pre-owned, at about the same time. (The simultaneous availability, at the same large big-city gun shop, was a rare coincidence.). Mine is pre-crossbolt, because a crossbolt safety operates in the “wrong” direction, for a lefty. We will see how these function. If these vex us, we may well stick with rifle-cartridge lever rifles.
The ‘94 Winchesters are not as slick-actioned as a ‘92, but we were already accustomed to a .30 WCF ‘94.
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Hokkmike
Member
Can you shoot other bullets out of the Casull like the .45 LC?
Hokkmike...Shooting 45 LC out of a casull has been done with impunity, much like .38s can be shot out of a .357. But the reverse, shooting Casull out of the Rossi 92 cannot be done without some case modification as the Casull case is too long for the Colt chamber. The Casull cases hold more than the colt and the case is much beefier. And I did not use the Casull powders except for LilGun, and that at lower doses than for the Casull (16g vs 20g). That was because of a leveling off of velocity at 16 and 17g.
Driftwood Johnson
Member
My goodness, so many opinions.
As stated, any close replica of the Colt Single Action Army should be limited to SAAMI Max pressure of 14,000 PSI. This will include any Italian imports whether they are made by Uberti or Pietta. Cimarron rifles are manufactured in Italy by Uberti. Yes, all firearms manufactured in Italy must go through strict proof testing, and the pressure levels Italy uses are slightly higher than American SAAMI standards. Bottom line, do not use ammunition that exceeds the pressure the firearm was proofed at. No, you do not have to limit yourself to 45 Colt Cowboy loads. There is no official standard for pressure with Cowboy loads, but generally manufactured ammunition that says Cowboy ammunition on the box will generate slightly less pressure than the SAAMI Max pressure standard.
Rifles: The 1860 Henry, Winchester Model 1866, and Winchester Model 1873 all had what are called Toggle Link actions.
This is what the action of a Winchester Model 1873 looks like with the side plates removed. The Henry and Model 1866 actions are basically the same, but the 1873 side plates are easier to remove than on the other two, hence I used the 1873 to demonstrate a Toggle Link Action. The action is in battery in this photo. The links are extended, holding the bolt in position. If the hammer was cocked and ready to fire, the links would look the same. Notice there are three pivot points for the two links. One at the front is connected to the bolt, one at the rear is pinned to the frame, and one in the center is connected to an extension of the lever. There is another set of links on the other side of the frame exactly the same, except they are a mirror image of this set.
In this photo, the lever has been pushed all the way forward. The extension of the lever has folded the links, pulling the center pivot down and rearward. When the links folded, the front pivot pulled the bolt back, and the bolt extension cocked the hammer. The angled piece, called the Lifter Arm, has raised the brass Cartridge Carrier to the position it needs to be in for the bolt to shove a new cartridge into the chamber. The top of the brass Carrier can be seen peeking out of the top of the frame. Here is the thing about Toggle Link rifles. There are no locking lugs as there are on most modern rifles to keep the bolt in battery when a cartridge fires. All that is keeping the bolt from jumping back is the fact that the three pivot points of the links are lined up. Actually, when in battery the links have a slight over travel, with the center pivot slightly out of line with the other two. But there is no positive lock up of the links as there is with a modern rifle. If the action was not completely closed, and the trigger was accidentally pulled before the links finished lining up, the thrust of recoil would shove the bolt back forcefully, and the lever would swing forward forcefully. I have seen it happen at CAS matches when a shooter did not keep his finger off the trigger until the action closed. At the bottom of the frame behind the trigger a small piece is projecting downwards. This is a lever safety device. It prevents the trigger from being pulled until the lever has closed completely. You can see another part of the lever safety directly behind the trigger. When the bolt closes, it pushes the lever safety up out of the way, allowing the trigger to be pulled. This is not a modern Lawyer Driven safety device, Winchester engineers included it in the design around 1878 or so if memory serves, because they recognized the potential for injury if the trigger was pulled when the action was out of battery. Interestingly enough, modern replicas of the 1860 Henry and 1866 Winchester, true to their historical predecessors, do not include a lever safety.
Don't get me wrong, Toggle Link rifles are good rifles, when used the way they were designed. But notice frame is basically a skeletonized frame. Not a whole lot of metal there to absorb the punishment of heavy recoil. I shoot a replica 1860 Henry myself in CAS, but I only shoot it with Black Powder loads. I would not hesitate to shoot it with modern SAAMI spec ammunition, but I certainly would not shoot any hot stuff in it. Yes, Uberti chambered the 1873 rifle for 44 Magnum a few years ago. I had a chance to inspect one, and could not detect any material differences between it and one chambered for 45 Colt right next to it. Yes, it had to have been proofed the Italian standards for 44 Magnum. But bear in mind, proofing only subjects a firearm to one proof load, usually around 30% higher pressure than the Max pressure. I have no confidence a 44 Mag '73 frame would stand up to long term punishment from standard 44 Magnum ammunition. Years ago a friend bought a used Uberti '73 chambered for 357 Mag. He brought it back to the store when he found a hairline crack in the frame. No one could say what cracked the frame, but he was not going to take a chance with a '73 with a cracked frame.
The Winchester Model 1892 was designed by John M Browning, the dean of American gun designers. It is basically a scaled down version of his earlier Model 1886 lever rifle, which was chambered for longer cartridges such as 45-70. The '92 has a pair of locking lugs that ride in slots in the frame and bolt.
When the lever is pulled forward it pulls the lugs down and out of their slots in the bolt. This frees the bolt to move backwards. You can see the slots for the lugs in the bolt in this photo. Like most lever action rifles, when the bolt moves back it cocks the hammer for the next shot.
Unlike the Toggle Link rifles, the carrier in the '92 tilts upwards to present a round to the chamber. In this photo the bolt is about to shove a fresh round into the chamber. Although all of these photos have been of original Winchester rifles (notice the 44 WCF cartridge call out) the modern replicas all function exactly the same, whether they have been made in Italy, Japan, or wherever Rossis are made today.
So. Bottom line. the '92 is basically a stronger design than a Toggle Link rifle. When first produced the 1892 Winchester weighed one pound less than a 1873 of the same caliber and barrel length, and it was less expensive to manufacture than the '73. Not telling you not to buy a Toggle Link rifle, I love my Henry, but do be aware of their limitations. Modern 1892 replicas are routinely chambered for 44 Magnum, and one brand chambers it for 454 Casul. I do not own a '92 chambered for 45 Colt, it was never chambered for that cartridge until sometime in the 1980s and all of mine are antiques chambered for 44-40 or 38-40. I did win a Rossi 1892 in a raffle once but never fired it. I sold it to help pay for my Henry. Straight out of the box the action was a bit stiff, but it would probably wear in in time.
The 1894 Winchester chambered for 45 Colt? The 1894 is a longer action, designed for longer cartridges such as the 30-30.
There is a single locking lug on the '94, all the way at the rear of the bolt. Like the '92, the lug rides in slots in the frame.
To get enough lever throw for the longer cartridge, the '94 has a hinged floor plate that moves down when the lever is pushed forward. The hinged floor plate pulls the locking lug down, allowing the bolt to move back and cock the hammer.
Chambering it for 45 Colt is a compromise. I knew one Cowboy shooter who had a '94 chambered for 45 Colt and it was a jammamatic. I would not spend my money on a '94 chambered for 45 Colt.
As stated, any close replica of the Colt Single Action Army should be limited to SAAMI Max pressure of 14,000 PSI. This will include any Italian imports whether they are made by Uberti or Pietta. Cimarron rifles are manufactured in Italy by Uberti. Yes, all firearms manufactured in Italy must go through strict proof testing, and the pressure levels Italy uses are slightly higher than American SAAMI standards. Bottom line, do not use ammunition that exceeds the pressure the firearm was proofed at. No, you do not have to limit yourself to 45 Colt Cowboy loads. There is no official standard for pressure with Cowboy loads, but generally manufactured ammunition that says Cowboy ammunition on the box will generate slightly less pressure than the SAAMI Max pressure standard.
Rifles: The 1860 Henry, Winchester Model 1866, and Winchester Model 1873 all had what are called Toggle Link actions.
This is what the action of a Winchester Model 1873 looks like with the side plates removed. The Henry and Model 1866 actions are basically the same, but the 1873 side plates are easier to remove than on the other two, hence I used the 1873 to demonstrate a Toggle Link Action. The action is in battery in this photo. The links are extended, holding the bolt in position. If the hammer was cocked and ready to fire, the links would look the same. Notice there are three pivot points for the two links. One at the front is connected to the bolt, one at the rear is pinned to the frame, and one in the center is connected to an extension of the lever. There is another set of links on the other side of the frame exactly the same, except they are a mirror image of this set.
In this photo, the lever has been pushed all the way forward. The extension of the lever has folded the links, pulling the center pivot down and rearward. When the links folded, the front pivot pulled the bolt back, and the bolt extension cocked the hammer. The angled piece, called the Lifter Arm, has raised the brass Cartridge Carrier to the position it needs to be in for the bolt to shove a new cartridge into the chamber. The top of the brass Carrier can be seen peeking out of the top of the frame. Here is the thing about Toggle Link rifles. There are no locking lugs as there are on most modern rifles to keep the bolt in battery when a cartridge fires. All that is keeping the bolt from jumping back is the fact that the three pivot points of the links are lined up. Actually, when in battery the links have a slight over travel, with the center pivot slightly out of line with the other two. But there is no positive lock up of the links as there is with a modern rifle. If the action was not completely closed, and the trigger was accidentally pulled before the links finished lining up, the thrust of recoil would shove the bolt back forcefully, and the lever would swing forward forcefully. I have seen it happen at CAS matches when a shooter did not keep his finger off the trigger until the action closed. At the bottom of the frame behind the trigger a small piece is projecting downwards. This is a lever safety device. It prevents the trigger from being pulled until the lever has closed completely. You can see another part of the lever safety directly behind the trigger. When the bolt closes, it pushes the lever safety up out of the way, allowing the trigger to be pulled. This is not a modern Lawyer Driven safety device, Winchester engineers included it in the design around 1878 or so if memory serves, because they recognized the potential for injury if the trigger was pulled when the action was out of battery. Interestingly enough, modern replicas of the 1860 Henry and 1866 Winchester, true to their historical predecessors, do not include a lever safety.
Don't get me wrong, Toggle Link rifles are good rifles, when used the way they were designed. But notice frame is basically a skeletonized frame. Not a whole lot of metal there to absorb the punishment of heavy recoil. I shoot a replica 1860 Henry myself in CAS, but I only shoot it with Black Powder loads. I would not hesitate to shoot it with modern SAAMI spec ammunition, but I certainly would not shoot any hot stuff in it. Yes, Uberti chambered the 1873 rifle for 44 Magnum a few years ago. I had a chance to inspect one, and could not detect any material differences between it and one chambered for 45 Colt right next to it. Yes, it had to have been proofed the Italian standards for 44 Magnum. But bear in mind, proofing only subjects a firearm to one proof load, usually around 30% higher pressure than the Max pressure. I have no confidence a 44 Mag '73 frame would stand up to long term punishment from standard 44 Magnum ammunition. Years ago a friend bought a used Uberti '73 chambered for 357 Mag. He brought it back to the store when he found a hairline crack in the frame. No one could say what cracked the frame, but he was not going to take a chance with a '73 with a cracked frame.
The Winchester Model 1892 was designed by John M Browning, the dean of American gun designers. It is basically a scaled down version of his earlier Model 1886 lever rifle, which was chambered for longer cartridges such as 45-70. The '92 has a pair of locking lugs that ride in slots in the frame and bolt.
When the lever is pulled forward it pulls the lugs down and out of their slots in the bolt. This frees the bolt to move backwards. You can see the slots for the lugs in the bolt in this photo. Like most lever action rifles, when the bolt moves back it cocks the hammer for the next shot.
Unlike the Toggle Link rifles, the carrier in the '92 tilts upwards to present a round to the chamber. In this photo the bolt is about to shove a fresh round into the chamber. Although all of these photos have been of original Winchester rifles (notice the 44 WCF cartridge call out) the modern replicas all function exactly the same, whether they have been made in Italy, Japan, or wherever Rossis are made today.
So. Bottom line. the '92 is basically a stronger design than a Toggle Link rifle. When first produced the 1892 Winchester weighed one pound less than a 1873 of the same caliber and barrel length, and it was less expensive to manufacture than the '73. Not telling you not to buy a Toggle Link rifle, I love my Henry, but do be aware of their limitations. Modern 1892 replicas are routinely chambered for 44 Magnum, and one brand chambers it for 454 Casul. I do not own a '92 chambered for 45 Colt, it was never chambered for that cartridge until sometime in the 1980s and all of mine are antiques chambered for 44-40 or 38-40. I did win a Rossi 1892 in a raffle once but never fired it. I sold it to help pay for my Henry. Straight out of the box the action was a bit stiff, but it would probably wear in in time.
The 1894 Winchester chambered for 45 Colt? The 1894 is a longer action, designed for longer cartridges such as the 30-30.
There is a single locking lug on the '94, all the way at the rear of the bolt. Like the '92, the lug rides in slots in the frame.
To get enough lever throw for the longer cartridge, the '94 has a hinged floor plate that moves down when the lever is pushed forward. The hinged floor plate pulls the locking lug down, allowing the bolt to move back and cock the hammer.
Chambering it for 45 Colt is a compromise. I knew one Cowboy shooter who had a '94 chambered for 45 Colt and it was a jammamatic. I would not spend my money on a '94 chambered for 45 Colt.
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bannockburn
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Still yet another vote for the Rossi M92 in .45 Colt. I bought mine used but like new in the box. Overall fit and finish are both very good. The action was already slicked up and required no further work to be done to it. The short barrel really makes for a handy little carbine that is super quick at getting it on target. Plan on getting one in .357 to go with my Ruger Blackhawk.
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