krupparms
Member
I was looking around to see if I could find a good piston driven AR15 in .223nato. I would like to stay under $1000.00. I just want a basic rifle or carbine. Any suggestions? Thanks.
Looking for a Piston Driven A.R.
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orangeninja
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Edited
Anyhow, if you are wanting "basic" and right at about $1K you are probably looking at something by Adams Arms. There are 2 ways to go there. First, you can convert an existing AR using one of their kits (this gives you the option to go back to DI if you want) or you can simply buy one of their uppers or completed ARs. Their basic models are about $1k. Be aware though that they use nitride coating rather than chrome lining on their barrels. Supposedly just as tough, just different (I have no idea).
Another slightly more expensive option is Stagg Arms. Or you could bump up a tad more $1200-ish at Ruger. If you wanted to go high end you could start looking at Sig $1700 but beyond that we are safely double or more your desired price tag.
I started off wanting a piston AR but was talked into getting a DI. So far, a quality milspec DI seems to work better for me, but I know plenty of people rocking an Adams Arms converted AR who swear by them.
You could also do the Sig 556 which I've heard good and bad about but they are largely reputable and designed from the ground up to be piston driven. Just a thought.
Anyhow, if you are wanting "basic" and right at about $1K you are probably looking at something by Adams Arms. There are 2 ways to go there. First, you can convert an existing AR using one of their kits (this gives you the option to go back to DI if you want) or you can simply buy one of their uppers or completed ARs. Their basic models are about $1k. Be aware though that they use nitride coating rather than chrome lining on their barrels. Supposedly just as tough, just different (I have no idea).
Another slightly more expensive option is Stagg Arms. Or you could bump up a tad more $1200-ish at Ruger. If you wanted to go high end you could start looking at Sig $1700 but beyond that we are safely double or more your desired price tag.
I started off wanting a piston AR but was talked into getting a DI. So far, a quality milspec DI seems to work better for me, but I know plenty of people rocking an Adams Arms converted AR who swear by them.
You could also do the Sig 556 which I've heard good and bad about but they are largely reputable and designed from the ground up to be piston driven. Just a thought.
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Here is another option for you at around/under a grand.....
http://www.slickguns.com/product/ruger-sr-556e-556mm-gas-piston-953
Pretty basic for a short stroke piston system, and the SR556E is a complete rifle designed from the outset as such.
http://www.slickguns.com/product/ruger-sr-556e-556mm-gas-piston-953
Pretty basic for a short stroke piston system, and the SR556E is a complete rifle designed from the outset as such.
Yeah, I'd probably go with the Ruger for that price point and just be patient for a deal to hit the $1k mark. I have an LMT MRP upper with a 16" piston barrel (lot more than $1k though) so what I'm saying next isn't biased against owning pistons in theory.
I'd strongly consider what the piston will bring to the table over DI. IMO, nothing concrete. A high quality AR such as a Colt can be had for $1k and if properly lubed can go 1000s of rounds between cleanings w/o failure. Pistons introduce as many new problems as old problems they solve. This is only because ARs weren't designed that way originally, purpose designed pistons (AK, SCAR) are different.
I like my MRP only because I can swap the barrels out, I'm probably gonna sell the 16" piston kit if I can, there isn't a need for it. Just added weight and complexity. If I keep it, I'll probably get it cut to 14.5" and re-profiled lighter, it really is a piggy right now!
I'd strongly consider what the piston will bring to the table over DI. IMO, nothing concrete. A high quality AR such as a Colt can be had for $1k and if properly lubed can go 1000s of rounds between cleanings w/o failure. Pistons introduce as many new problems as old problems they solve. This is only because ARs weren't designed that way originally, purpose designed pistons (AK, SCAR) are different.
I like my MRP only because I can swap the barrels out, I'm probably gonna sell the 16" piston kit if I can, there isn't a need for it. Just added weight and complexity. If I keep it, I'll probably get it cut to 14.5" and re-profiled lighter, it really is a piggy right now!
DammitBoy
Member
Krupp, if you want a quality non DI, you are looking at $1200 - but that gets you a very well made firearm.
IMHO, it's a toss up between the Ruger and the Sig Sauer. I'd go Sig for the better magpul furniture, but the Ruger is also a very nice rifle. While you get lower grade furniture, you get 3 mags instead of 1 and a carry case instead of a cardboard box.
Both are built like tanks and weigh in heavy for an AR...
IMHO, it's a toss up between the Ruger and the Sig Sauer. I'd go Sig for the better magpul furniture, but the Ruger is also a very nice rifle. While you get lower grade furniture, you get 3 mags instead of 1 and a carry case instead of a cardboard box.
Both are built like tanks and weigh in heavy for an AR...
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krupparms
Member
I have been useing the M-16/AR15 since I went into basic training in 1977 . The model I used was an early model from the USAF. Of course it was worn out. I used the basic model thru the 80's, but found I like the AK or even the SKS. Seemed a system that worked better for me. I have a Kel-Tec SU16/ca model. But this is no hard use rifle & would not stand up to hard use. I like the AK in .223 nato,but cannot find one that uses AR mags. 'Frag' thanks for that link. And to all the others that offer their knowledge.
Joe Mamma
Member
Edited
I think the best ones are made by Primary Weapons Systems (PWS). They are very high quality. You can buy the just the upper/barrel assembly and mount it on your existing AR lower (if you have one).
There was a similar thread on a different forum recently. Some people don't know about PWS because they don't seem to advertise very much. But among people who really know "piston driven AR" guns well, PWS is very well regarded.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_126/630671_Best_piston_AR.html
Joe Mamma
I think the best ones are made by Primary Weapons Systems (PWS). They are very high quality. You can buy the just the upper/barrel assembly and mount it on your existing AR lower (if you have one).
There was a similar thread on a different forum recently. Some people don't know about PWS because they don't seem to advertise very much. But among people who really know "piston driven AR" guns well, PWS is very well regarded.
http://www.ar15.com/forums/t_3_126/630671_Best_piston_AR.html
Joe Mamma
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waffentomas
Member
krupp:
Cabelas sells used rifles, and you can search their gun library online for all used piston driven ARs in all their US stores. If you find one, regardless of which store it's currently at, you can ship it to the Lacy WA store. It's legal for OR residents to buy a long gun in WA.
I'd bet you can find a nice used piston AR for 1K-1.1K
Cabelas sells used rifles, and you can search their gun library online for all used piston driven ARs in all their US stores. If you find one, regardless of which store it's currently at, you can ship it to the Lacy WA store. It's legal for OR residents to buy a long gun in WA.
I'd bet you can find a nice used piston AR for 1K-1.1K
krupparms
Member
I have learned a lot from this thread so far. I will be giveing some thought to the concept & I will be looking at some new rifles, I didn't know about. Thanks to everyone! And if anyone has more to add, Please DO! I am trimming down my collection & just want what I need as far as a S.D. gun . The AR15 will be one of my guns I really depend on! So I will consider the advice to pay a little more or get one used. Also I will look at some of the others mentioned by some. 
Thanks for helping me learn a thing or 2 today.
Thanks for helping me learn a thing or 2 today.
USBP379
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Maybe this online article will help you decide which of some of the available piston driven AR's appeal to you.
http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...rms-Roundup-Testing-piston-driven-AR-systems/
http://www.policeone.com/police-pro...rms-Roundup-Testing-piston-driven-AR-systems/
If you want a good reliable piston driven AR, the Adams Arms is very popular and probably the best "affordable" piston AR. There are much more expensive piston systems out there, but Adams Arms are very simple and used by several companies to build piston AR's.
This is a Huldra Arms 16" mid length which is built by Adams Arms. The piston upper with bolt carrier group cost $600. Added the magpul handguard and Daniel Defense fixed irons for $150. The lower with CTR stock and ambi safety selector cost $450, so I've got $1200 total into this rifle. It's very easy to clean since the hot gasses are not getting vented into the bolt and upper receiver.
As for the terminology of Direct Impingement, yes technically the bolt in the BCG acts as a piston, but gasses are still directly impinged into the BCG instead of a gas piston operating rod. So for the sake of sparing the OP some confusion, lets just call it DI like 99% of the market calls it, ok?
This is a Huldra Arms 16" mid length which is built by Adams Arms. The piston upper with bolt carrier group cost $600. Added the magpul handguard and Daniel Defense fixed irons for $150. The lower with CTR stock and ambi safety selector cost $450, so I've got $1200 total into this rifle. It's very easy to clean since the hot gasses are not getting vented into the bolt and upper receiver.
As for the terminology of Direct Impingement, yes technically the bolt in the BCG acts as a piston, but gasses are still directly impinged into the BCG instead of a gas piston operating rod. So for the sake of sparing the OP some confusion, lets just call it DI like 99% of the market calls it, ok?
Joe Mamma
Member
It's ironic that the posters picking on people for their use of the words "piston" and "DI", have been referring to these guns as "ARs." In this context, "AR" is a term referring to an AR-15, which is a gun made only by Armalite (or Colt because they licensed the name) . . .
But back on topic, one other thing to consider is that some piston ARs are long stroke and some are short stroke. Off of the top of my head, PWS is the only company whose AR piston system is a long stroke design (similar to an AK-47). A lot of people consider the long stroke ARs system to be inherently more reliable than the short stroke piston systems.
Joe Mamma
But back on topic, one other thing to consider is that some piston ARs are long stroke and some are short stroke. Off of the top of my head, PWS is the only company whose AR piston system is a long stroke design (similar to an AK-47). A lot of people consider the long stroke ARs system to be inherently more reliable than the short stroke piston systems.
Joe Mamma
mljdeckard
Member
The Ruger is probably the cheapest.
SilverCat
Member
Edited
I'll answer. A few have already mentioned this: Go with ADAMS ARMS piston system. You could even simply use a kit from them to convert a gas impingement (or whatever the heck some people want to call it) AR.
Many piston kits cause a significant amount of bolt carrier tilt, which is DAMAGING TO YOUR RIFLE. Go Adams Arms!! Or any other brand you find that causes no carrier tilt!!
I'll answer. A few have already mentioned this: Go with ADAMS ARMS piston system. You could even simply use a kit from them to convert a gas impingement (or whatever the heck some people want to call it) AR.
Many piston kits cause a significant amount of bolt carrier tilt, which is DAMAGING TO YOUR RIFLE. Go Adams Arms!! Or any other brand you find that causes no carrier tilt!!
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ugaarguy
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I've cleaned up the drift into AR-15 technical minutia. Krupparms asked a simple question. Let's try to answer it. Assume he's asking about an AR-15 or AR upper with a short stroke or long stroke op-rod type piston. We'll deal with technical details of the conventional operating system and the piston that's internal to the bolt carrier on it in another thread. Let's keep this on topic.
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Phaedrus/69
Member
A Core 15 pistol gun will run you less than $1k for just the base model. I've heard nothing but good about the company but they're pretty new, so not a lot of track record to go on yet. They do look to be well made, though.
briansmithwins
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One problem with all the piston ARs is they break parts commonality. If the maker of your specific rifle goes under or decides to no longer support their old design you are out of luck.
I'd want spares of all the non-standard parts before committing to a specific design.
BSW
I'd want spares of all the non-standard parts before committing to a specific design.
BSW
While an HK416 is out of your budgetary limits, it is the gold standard of op-rod ARs. The Norwegian Army uses them to great success in a wide variety of climes and conditions. One Norwegian I correspond with on occasions has nothing but praise for his HK416 and he's has a chance to compare it to other rifles including the AK FOW, G3 & M4.
I would not worry too much about parts commonality. Even if the maker were to go out of business and proprietary parts became unavailable, you can still swap out the entire upper and get it up and running again.
This is coming from a guy that feels an op-rod upper offers no advantage for the added cost
I would not worry too much about parts commonality. Even if the maker were to go out of business and proprietary parts became unavailable, you can still swap out the entire upper and get it up and running again.
This is coming from a guy that feels an op-rod upper offers no advantage for the added cost
CharlieDeltaJuliet
Member
I would go with a Ruger, but that's just me. If you can up your budget a tad Sig 516 is a top notch piston gun for around $1500-1600(iirc). I have an Hk MR556 and my love for the piston AR runs deep. I almost traded an early serial numbered Hk 94 for the Sig 516 & 716 combo a guy had. That's how well I like the Sigs.
BCRider
Member
Krupparms, realistically how much will you shoot this gun between strip and clean sessions?
I'm sort of in the same boat as you and I'm looking around at options for a basic low cost AR style that I can use for occasional range days and the odd black rifle or 3 gun match.
I started out thinking that piston would be better. But after reading and talking with serious AR/M16 players I quickly came to the conclusion that I'm better off using whatever money I want to put into the rifle into getting slightly better parts in a DI option. The bottom line is that I simply would not put enough ammo through the gun between cleanings to come anywhere close to seeing a reliability issue due to fouling.
You might be caught up in the same idea as I was when I first started looking at these guns. To me it just seemed like the piston guns were a clear "upgrade" after reading the maker's hype. Or perhaps you subscribe to the idea that if it costs more than it MUST be better. I know that was my first thoughts in looking around. But the more I looked into the topic the more it seems that the choice of DI or piston is more of a "6 of one, half a dozen of the other". And of course you don't pay for stuff that isn't there. So you can either get a less expensive rifle of similar quality or put the money that would have paid for the piston parts into a better quality overall rifle or add on upgrade parts.
Now I have not looked at the idea of suppresors used on AR style rifles or other factors. Just wanted an inexpensive but still solid performer for range and match days. So depending on what your long term plans are my thoughts may not fit with yours.
I'm sort of in the same boat as you and I'm looking around at options for a basic low cost AR style that I can use for occasional range days and the odd black rifle or 3 gun match.
I started out thinking that piston would be better. But after reading and talking with serious AR/M16 players I quickly came to the conclusion that I'm better off using whatever money I want to put into the rifle into getting slightly better parts in a DI option. The bottom line is that I simply would not put enough ammo through the gun between cleanings to come anywhere close to seeing a reliability issue due to fouling.
You might be caught up in the same idea as I was when I first started looking at these guns. To me it just seemed like the piston guns were a clear "upgrade" after reading the maker's hype. Or perhaps you subscribe to the idea that if it costs more than it MUST be better. I know that was my first thoughts in looking around. But the more I looked into the topic the more it seems that the choice of DI or piston is more of a "6 of one, half a dozen of the other". And of course you don't pay for stuff that isn't there. So you can either get a less expensive rifle of similar quality or put the money that would have paid for the piston parts into a better quality overall rifle or add on upgrade parts.
Now I have not looked at the idea of suppresors used on AR style rifles or other factors. Just wanted an inexpensive but still solid performer for range and match days. So depending on what your long term plans are my thoughts may not fit with yours.
krupparms
Member
I would like to thank all of you. This has given me some things to consider. 1. Do I really need to change rifles? & 2. If I do, I have some new rifles to check out. & 3. Which of these designs work best for me in the long run? I do appreciate the advice & the right terms to use. I will be reconsidering this whole matter now! Thanks!
krupparms
Member
I am selling a AR15A2, Rifle w/20"BLR.. I also have a Double Star AR15M4, Carbine. It is a flat top model. I have been thinking of selling it also so I could go the other route. But now I thinking that I should keep the D.S. carbine & up grade it. I do like that Adams Arms upper & am going to check it out some more. But at 54 I am not planning on seeing any heavy combat anyway! The money spent on upgrading the D.S. might just be the best move as I can always get a new upper or keep it the way it is & upgrade. Something to think about! Thanks!
sawcut
Member
The guys that point out that a properly lubed DI AR rifle will function very well are, of course, completely correct. But as this is a hobby for me, and I too wanted to try out a piston AR.
I got the Adams Arms kit and installed it on a 20" AR. I have not used it thousands of rounds, but it has functioned well so far in my 150 rounds through it. The parts are all well made, simple and robust. The proprietary parts are not items that will probably ever wear out, it uses a standard bolt and firing pin. I would recommend the AA kit.
For me it was just having one as a variation in the AR design. Almost 20 years ago I joined the Army and went to basic training. I was already a moderately experienced shooter, but my semi-auto experience was on Garands, M1a's and AK type rifles. I had no idea about the nuances of different actions at that time. Back then when I learned to recite that the rifle was "... gas operated, closed bolt..., etc. etc.." I really had no idea what I was saying.
The first time they had us disassemble the rifle after firing, I was shocked how much carbon got into the action. Of course the Drill Instructors only compounded the issue by demanding a white glove inspection of the cleaned rifle every time it was turned in. I very quickly grew to dislike the action for that reason.
Within the first few weeks, spending hours sitting on the floor of the barracks bay cleaning the rifle, I wondered how the rifle would function if it was ever adapted to a piston. So when they became available a few years ago, of course I had to try one.
Also, once I was out of the Basic training environment, and learned what level of care was required for a well functioning DI rifle, I did come around to appreciating the system.
ETA: the AR will function just fine as originally designed. Adding a piston will make it run cleaner, but not necessarily any better. If you want to add the piston for the novelty of it, then try it.
I got the Adams Arms kit and installed it on a 20" AR. I have not used it thousands of rounds, but it has functioned well so far in my 150 rounds through it. The parts are all well made, simple and robust. The proprietary parts are not items that will probably ever wear out, it uses a standard bolt and firing pin. I would recommend the AA kit.
For me it was just having one as a variation in the AR design. Almost 20 years ago I joined the Army and went to basic training. I was already a moderately experienced shooter, but my semi-auto experience was on Garands, M1a's and AK type rifles. I had no idea about the nuances of different actions at that time. Back then when I learned to recite that the rifle was "... gas operated, closed bolt..., etc. etc.." I really had no idea what I was saying.
The first time they had us disassemble the rifle after firing, I was shocked how much carbon got into the action. Of course the Drill Instructors only compounded the issue by demanding a white glove inspection of the cleaned rifle every time it was turned in. I very quickly grew to dislike the action for that reason.
Within the first few weeks, spending hours sitting on the floor of the barracks bay cleaning the rifle, I wondered how the rifle would function if it was ever adapted to a piston. So when they became available a few years ago, of course I had to try one.
Also, once I was out of the Basic training environment, and learned what level of care was required for a well functioning DI rifle, I did come around to appreciating the system.
ETA: the AR will function just fine as originally designed. Adding a piston will make it run cleaner, but not necessarily any better. If you want to add the piston for the novelty of it, then try it.
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