looking for an effective, reliable solvent

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^_^

Again. Love this forum. I don't post nearly as much as I would like and it's really nice to see this thread growing.

I have no problem saying I'm still a newbie pretty much and still have much to learn about cleaning. Naturally I have more questions. I want to get the most I can out of all this so just to ensure I understand everything I'm going to ask some seemingly obvious questions that I probably already know, and I understand I could google these and get some decent results, but I want to hear from experience and try to filter out baseless speculation. Besides, it's a good feeling knowing others' google searches will no doubt lead to this thread and we'll get more members because of it.

Which solvents have ammonia and which don't? From what I gather, it seems there are far less damaging products that still get decent if not better results. Does CLP have ammonia?

Moxxie's aside implies there is stigma on the use of WD40. What's the damage-effectiveness ratio of WD and would it suffice as a SHTF cleaner? Would it be used as solvent only or poor-mans CLP? For that matter, what other chemicals could be used as an emergency solvent and which sould absolutely be avoided?

As for the frog lube v. kano oil debate, how much of what kind of ammo do both of you go through?

In addition to solvents, what oils and lubes do y'all prefer? Is oil oil or is there really a noticeable difference? Again, out of curiosity, what would suffice in an emergency and what are they're respective pros/cons.

As far as the actual cleaning process, using proper procedures, how much does it take to wear down a barrel? like I said, I spent hours on one gun at a time in search of that clean patch and was always concerned about wear. How much do chrome-lined barrels withstand this? Is the chrome mainly a chemical buffer or do they help protect against pitting too?

I'm still curious about what would eat through the rubber gaskets on my piston key.

If there's any tip, trick, link, answer to unasked question, or video y'all would like to share please do. I'll take all the information I get

Thanks again to all of you for helping me out. It is much appreciated. I'll contribute whatever I can once I've had a chance to try some of these out.
 
Sorry for the delay in reply, I personally shoot all kinds of ammo, and usually a couple hundred rounds a week of 9mm and .45 ACP.

As for my customers I cannot say for sure, but most of them it seems shoot the cheapest stuff on the market.

This thread go me thinking though, so I started looking for a better answer, using all of the suggestions put forth in this thread. I think I have found the best method! (though not the cheapest.)

Today I had 4 guns to clean. A S&W 625,(500 rounds of aluminum blazer) a glock 21,(same case) a Sig 226, (600 rounds of federal) and my M1 carbine, (200 rounds of Vietnam era surplus) all round nose FMJ.


With each, I started with my normal strip and inspect, using a bronze brush and hoppes #9 to scrub off carbon. However while stripping and inspecting the guns I let my new formula brew. I mixed from lube paste, kroil, and shooters choice copper solvent. Since the frog lube works best on a warm gun, I heated the barrels (and the cylinder on the 625) with a heat gun until warm to the touch, nothing extreme. Using a bore brush that was damaged , I gobbed my new paste on, and ran it into the barrels, allowing plenty to sit in the bore. After cleaning the frames, slides, ect, and assembling as far as I could without the barrels, I went to work.

I got a fresh brush, and scrubbed the bores. Ten to twenty strokes did the trick. I put my brass jag on,
And ran 2 patches through. By the third they came out clean, and the bores had no sign of copper or carbon. All in all I let the paste sit about 20 minutes.

I can't express how simple this made my cleaning process. If anyone is interested I will post some pictures of how these bores came out. On the stainless guns it looked like a barrel straight from the lathe in the factory. The blued ones were close to the same story, since they had seen much use.

This metgod combines the best of all the worlds in my opinion. The paste frog lube seasons itself into the pores of the warm metal, allowing you to skip the bore conditioners. The kroil breaks all the fouling loose and the copper solvent (while high in amonia) does wonders for removing that nasty copper that you just can't seem to get out.

Hope it helps you guys out, I know it makes work (and cleaning up after playing on the range) a breeze!

Cheers!
 
pre-game...

First off, sorry it's taken so long to reply, but there's valid reason I promise...
Came back a week ago from 2 week vacation where all I did was shoot all day every day. I've got a lot of dirty guns that need attention, but more on that in a bit.

I just put part of my refund to good use at Brownells. I was expecting a mix of answers when I needled this thread but was honestly expecting a few collective favorites to come out of this. Working with what I have, I did my research and still had so many options of chemicals, so I just made a list and bought almost all mentioned here. I figure I'll find uses for them all eventually, but enough justification, onto the list:

froglube paste and liquid
kg12
butch bore shine
jb compound and bright
kroil
and finally a can of foam cleaner that got high marks.

this is all in addition to the hoppes, m pro 7, tetra grease, and breakfree I already have.

Since i clean in the relatively small space of my garage and most of my weapons have some plastic somewhere, I'm going to do my best to use as much non-toxic and odorless chems as I can afford without sacrificing quality. In that spirit, I replaced Thump's sweets with kg. Judging by those test results and every written review, I doubt I will be disappointed.

Now for the weapons. I have some form of plan for each but if anyone here has $.02 to share I'm all ears. Like I said, they're all in need of a good, solid cleaning and while the barrels were the primary focus of this thread, I'm curious if any of the following have any tips or tricks to them or if y'all see any red flags with any of the chems listed above. Each gun is listed with highlights/concerns I have if applicable. Bear in mind, for the older guns especially, I'm treating this as a first-clean-ever type of scenario, especially where copper is concerned. I doubt they will be worked this thoroughly for a while after I'm done with them. They all are fed brass w/ Cu jacket unless stated o/w.

.38 revolver-
lots of wadcutter along with Cu jacketed. need to see which chem is best for straight lead

.40 glock-
thinking might try the froglube clp on this one

.40 czp06-
dad's gun. Found out he took it upon himself to clean it... using flux cleaner.:uhoh: definitely worried about damage since I doubt he did anything else. Rea lly want input on this one. Don't know much about flux or cz barrels. ooked on MSDS. Flux he used eats aluminum and zinc. He just used it barrel. Still, hope that gun doesn't have any parts made of alkali, alkaline, or poor earth metals...

Piston AR-
has chrome-lined barrel but still going to going to go after it with a butch-kg12 laryer treatment followed by Jb finish which I will refer to as the modified thump treatment for remainder of thread. The piston itself is steel so not worried about corrosion, however the piston key always has a ton of carbon requiring a thorough soak, and I want to make sure I don't damage the rubber O-ring gasket on it. Thinking a soak in Mpro 7 might be enough to get job done. Unsure about what to use on bolt.

m1a- modified thump treatment on barrel, maybe froglube liquid on piston rod... tetra grease and either froglube liquid or hoppes oil as finishing on all other parts.

rem 700-
modified thump treatment on barrel, unsure about bolt.

rem 870-
foam cleaner on barrel followed by froglube heat treatment from roadsidesaint. Unsure about other parts, but need to find a friction-fighting lube for the forend guides as they tend to get stuck during rapid fires.

win 1906 .22- been neglected for decades. still shoots but not accurate. I see kroil in it's future.

marlin 30-30- sister's gun. She has no idea how to clean it so she hasn't touched it. It's a used gun too so probably will kroil it as well. Beyond that... I dunno.

And finally, mosin m44-
Made in 1950 and used by polish trainers for a loooong time. Not once have I been able to get a clean swab. In addition, she has a nasty habit of breaking my cleaning rods. I'm thinking extended and heavy modified thump treatment after it's had some kroil and maybe some foam put through to attempt to loosen. I expect this one to take a few days to work on.

Anytime I mention froglube, I want to make clear I plan on taking roadside's advice and warming the barrel, which leads to a question for Roadside: when you heat the barrel, do you lightly torch from the outside or heat from the inside?

I'm working on a recipe for when the chems get here and I can see what mixes well, and will of course share my results once I have them. Until then, I look forward to reading everyone's advice and of course hope to help out if I can. Ill post pics if requested, but of course that's all still a few days away.

Thanks again to all of you. For the first time in a long while I'm actually looking forward to breaking 'em down and cleaning up.:D
 
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IMO, it doesn't matter much which cleaner or lube you use as long as you do the work. For the barrels, run a few soaking swabs through the bore, get it real wet, and let it set for a few hours. Then proceed. Use bronze brush if necessary.
A really filthy receiver might need a good flushing with brake/carb cleaner, Gunblast, or even WD-40. Yes it's a good cleaner. Swab it out well, and then clean and lube with whatever is handy.
 
I'm still pretty fond of Gunzilla for most cleaning.

If I need to deal with copper fouling I also like a good foaming bore cleaner and I tend to go back and forth between Outers or Gunslick for that specific application.
 
I have tried many of the cleaners mentioned. But by far the easiest quickest and best cleaner I have used is Bore Tech Eliminator. I have cleaned guns with Hoppes ,Gunslick bore foam breakfree and many others and when finished went back and cleaned the same gun with Bore Tech Eliminator and removed more carbon and copper. The other products had removed all that they would but the Bore Tech showed me what they were missing. Great stuff I say.
 
There is a wonder product for such that is readily available most anywhere, it is called automatic transmission fluid.
 
blindhog1964 said:
I have tried many of the cleaners mentioned. But by far the easiest quickest and best cleaner I have used is Bore Tech Eliminator. I have cleaned guns with Hoppes ,Gunslick bore foam breakfree and many others and when finished went back and cleaned the same gun with Bore Tech Eliminator and removed more carbon and copper. The other products had removed all that they would but the Bore Tech showed me what they were missing. Great stuff I say.
Click to expand...

My experience with the stuff is similar. Nothing I've found will clean an old milsurp's bore faster or better.
 
I like MPro7. One thing to keep in mind with CLP (MPro7 calls theirs LPx) in my experience is that it continues to lift carbon so any time you wipe a little oil it always appears dirty. They have cleaner, copper cleaner, and their LPX.

I also like the fact that it doesn't have smelly fumes. Nice to be able to clean guns in the house and not the garage if I feel like it without bothering anyone.
 
Debrief

Ok. Finally done cleaning and have great results.

I should mention in addition to the chems, I also ordered the big, expensive Otis kit, as I was sick of rods and jags breaking on me. I must say I was thoroughly impressed with it and used every tool in it. For those on the fence I gotta say it exceeded my expectations. I can tell it'll survive on my bench for a long time. =)

Basically, I stripped them down as much as I felt comfortable, hit trouble spots with the foam, let sit for 15-30 min, ran a patch or two then sprayed mpro7, sit, and ran a couple more patches. Once the easy cleaning was done, I scrubbed the barrels then either repeated the foam, mpro, or butches, and again let sit 10-15 min. once I was satisfied I broke out the kroil. This is where it got interesting. No matter how many clean
patches I was pulling out before oiling, the first kroil patch came out black every time. So, I ran kroiled and dry patches in intervals of two until I was seeing mostly pink. Then worked over some small patches of surface rust from a rainy day at the range with more kroil. Assembled and that was it. Each gun took between an hour or two.

Unfortunately, I didn't get to try out the froglube or either JB paste, as I just didn't see the need to break them out at the time. :/

Biggest props go to the kroil, although it isn't a solvent at all, when soaked into a patch it seems to creep deep enough into the fouling to at least remove it if not break it down. That plus it's use for rust prevention/removal, lube, and its subtle, almost pleasant odor makes it one of my new faves.

The Mpro 7 surprised me. I honestly wasn't expecting the results it gave me.
Put the spray bottle to the barrel, squirt twice then rolled it around while looking through the bore. It was so cool watching the carbon softening and expanding before my eyes as it broke down. First patch was always black. However, this may in combination with the foam put in before it. I didn't try the mpro on its own and it could just be that the two make a powerful combination.
The foam is made by gunslick and made cleaning a lot easier being it expanded into every tiny space and a copper solvent as well as carbon. All I had to do was make sure I wrapped a towel around the straw to prevent it all from coming out towards me and apply it. Like I said, I was going off reviews and was expecting decent coverage. I was again pleasantly surprised when I saw blue foam spitting continuously out of the barrel and the gas ports on my AR and M1A :what:. After 30 min all that was left was a lot of softened fouling.

The butches I wasn't as impressed with. Aside from the noxious fumes, it didn't seem to put that big a dent into the fouling. Sure, patches came out a deepish gray, but eh, not worth the fumes. To make sure I gave it a fair shot, I let it sit in my mosin for 12 hours. Basically after regular cleaning mentioned above, I swiped a soaked butches patch through then soaked a bore snake in the stuff. I then ran it through and stopped with the just the brush section sticking out. Every hour or so I would come down and run it back and forth a few times to ensure the snake wasn't dry and air out the garage. After the 12 hours I pulled out a slightly darkened snake, with the barrel seemingly untouched. Scrubbed with a brush and ran some dry patches through. Gray. That barrel is still caked with fouling from 1952. I'm tempted to run the snake again with kroil instead of butches.

I also ran a patch or two of kg 12 on the rifles. While the lack of odor was nice, the results were a little lackluster. I was expecting a nice deep blue. Maybe it was because I only let it sit for 5ish min, but the patches pulled were a light blue. Of course, there's no telling how much the initial foam application got out.

All in all, after a lot of work, I have 10 clean guns and a clean-er mosin. Will probably put the snake through the wash then try the kroil soak.

TL;DR- expensive otis wise and worthy investment.
kroil- best stuff on the planet, no odor (go back and read this part)
gunslick foam- very effective, surprised how well it works, no odor
mpro7- effective and plays well with the foam- no odor
butches- works ok, but expected higher yield after a 12 hour carbon buffet- will burn your nose off
kg-12- you'll get blue patches, but may have to let it sit longer than 5-10 min
JB pastes and froglube- didn't get a chance to try. Will post when I do.

Thanks again for all the help and input. It is greatly appreciated and hope I was able to return the favor. Any questions y'all have I'll happily answer if I can. Happy Cleaning. :D
 
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Debrief

posted twice accidentally. Couldn't figure out how to delete totally, so did this instead :/
 
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I also ran a patch or two of kg 12 on the rifles. While the lack of odor was nice, the results were a little
lackluster. I was expecting a nice deep blue. Maybe it was because I only let it sit for 5ish min, but
the patches pulled were a light blue. Of course, there's no telling how much the initial foam application got out.
Click to expand...

KG-12 is specifically for copper (though it will also clean up any leftover powder).
KG-12 does not -- repeat -- NOT turn blue as it removes that copper.
Instead you get the copper coming out after a few minutes wet/soak as
a brown crud on the patch that is unmistakable as you dry-patch it out.

It's one-shot effectiveness can be measured by the fact that Butch's BoreShine run
through the barrel afterwards indicates no residual blue at all.
 
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I see...

Good to know. I'll be sure to run some on a friends mosin I got coming to me for cleaning. Thanks for the correction.
 
"one quart ATF, one quart HD w30 motor oil, one pint Marvel Mystery Oil, one pint STP Oil treatment, and one small bottle of Hoppes #9."

This is a mix of a former sniper and Marine rifle team. This is a concoction shown in the Rifle Shooter, May/June 2012 edition.

Seems automatic transmission fluid turns up in a bunch of cleaning and lube cocktails on popular firearm sites on the internet. They claim while it lubes and cleans, the Hoppes will not allow carbon to "stick" to the metal and cleans easily.

The Marvel MysteryOil is prescribed to be added to the fuel AND the oil of diesels. That interests me.

I have stated before I am a big fan of RemOil. Ispay it on the firearms, let it set, and spray again to rinse off. 100#s of air later I wipe down and store barrel down.

However, I am going to mix the aforementioned brew and try it.
 
Red Cent, Mike1-7, and Moxie, a few questions:

It seems auto fluids (atf in particular) have gained a confident fanbase over time. It may be that I'm just green to cleaning and lube or that I'm just a snob, but I just have a skepticism about using auto chems. I just imagine thick, noxious goop getting into unreachable areas and possibly corroding parts. I definitely saw their potential for cheap plentiful cleaning alternatives for a shtf scenario, but am just now starting to come around to the thought of using them for regular cleaning. Mainly I just need the skinny on processes, recipes, and risks.

In that mixture Redcent wrote about, did they specify how long it should soak in the barrel? For that matter, are these chems safe for any other part besies the barrel/non-moving parts?

Would it behoove me to sub the hoppes in that mix with butches? If smell is any indication the butches is more powerful and it wouldn't surprise me that they only used hoppes because of its availability.

From what I've read here, atf seems to make for a reliable lube but not solvent. Would it work in the same vein as my kroil theory where, even though fouling isn't dissolved, it is loosened up to where it just catches the patch?

Aside from auto fluids, what other chems have been known to show results on guns? Of particular interest to me is WD-40. I personally have no problem using it on some parts (says it works for guns on the can), but from research and discussions I've had there seems to be a stigma to using it, with no particular reason as to why. Any input on that would be appreciated.

Basically, I don't care if what I use on my guns as long as they give me results and don't damage the functional parts of the weapon. I'll be mixing up that marvel recipe too, though I'm going to make two types; one with hoppes and one with butches. I'll post my results and hope Redcent does as well so we can compare results. For science, Gentlemen.:cool:
 
I don't have the knowledge to answer those questions. I only know that one of the solvents recommended to me worked for the one application... dissolving the carbon build-up an a shotgun gas adjustment nut.
 
Don't be a skeptic. Most automotive applications are far more severe in terms of pressure and heat than for firearms. As I said earlier, ATF is a great lube but not a solvent. A good synthetic motor oil like Mobil 1 is a great lube also. Auto greases are great for slide rails, etc. Hoppe's has dissolved everything I needed to be dissolved on my guns lo these many years, and their copper solvent is also good when you get a bit of copper fouling in the bore. Just run a few wet patches down the bore when you start the cleaning job. When you're finished with everything else, clean the barrel bore.
Redcent's mixture above looks OK to me. The Hoppe's is there probably to thin the mix. I haven't seen STP in a long while, as automotive oils have become so good there really isn't any need to add stuff anymore. It was different back in the 60s.
WD-40 IMO is in fact a great cleaner and solvent. I often spray it on after I've cleaned with Hoppe's and wipe everything off. Then lube. It's very thin and evaporates fairly quickly. It does help protect against corrosion. Before the internet, many people used it on guns all the time. Those guns are still in good shape.
 
I believe WD-40 is better known as a penetrant and water displacement. It is not recognized for its lubricity.

Someone gave me a number of cans of 318 a while back. This is a tool oil for compressors, air tools, and a penetrant. I used it on a couple of rode hard put up wet firearms and was surprised how easily I could remove the black stuff.

I compete in SASS every weekend so I clean my comp guns regularly. Another thing: I shoot lead and plated/washed bullets only. I cannot speak to the ability of 318 on copper fouling. The Hoppes mixture should take care of that.

Again, I am going to mix a few gallons of the aforementioned concoction and use it in my parts washer. I, religiously, remove the stocks and submerge them in a cleaner to soak. 100#s of air takes care of the excess.

What interests me that the Hoppes will not allow carbon to "stick".
 
ATF won't corrode your gun parts. Transmission gears are metal too. I can't swear to its effectiveness as a solvent but I can attest that it makes a first class firearms and knife lube when mixed two parts ATF to one part STP and one part Mobil 1 synthetic oil.

I can see how ATF would be useful as a soaking solvent for powder or bullet lube fouling just by virtue of being so cheap. Soak a patch and liberally wet the bore, then let it work for a few minutes. The biggest amount of initial fouling is probably removed more by mechanical than chemical action anyway, so why use the expensive stuff for the first pass when the brush or patch is doing all the work anyway?

I think the takeaway message of this thread is that we all will never agree on the best bore cleaner :)

Of particular interest to me is WD-40. I personally have no problem using it on some parts (says it works for guns on the can), but from research and discussions I've had there seems to be a stigma to using it, with no particular reason as to why.
Click to expand...

The stigma comes from its lack of staying power as a long-term rust preventative. WD40 will evaporate over time, leaving guns to rust whose owners think they are protected. It happened to a fantastic original High Standard target pistol my Dad owned. He hosed it down with WD then stuck it under his bed. When he pulled it out a couple of years later it was rusty, and the part that wasn't rusty was gummy. I would be happy to spray it on a wet gun, or to spray it down a dirty bore, but I wouldn't depend on it for long term storage. That's why they invented Johnson's Paste Wax!
 
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Elkins- Agreed. Didn't expect a true consensus went I needled this thread but still got some great information and insight nonetheless.

I can see with the quick evaporation why wd-40 wouldn't be good for protection. I remember reading on the company's website how it was originally developed in trials as a rust prevention for ICBM's, and considering the things it lubes (doors, fans etc.) I wonder what makes it evaporate in storage? I'm curious if that only applies to the aerosol. Not sure if they sell it in a can, though I do have a wd-40 pen in garage. (very useful) I dunno, just a thought. :rolleyes:

While were on the subject, We've covered shtf solvents and lubes a bit, but what else would work in a pinch. Particularly in the case of a substitute grease lube for my m1a. Haven't had it for very long and so far have only used tetra grease. Interested in knowing my options..
 
I like Breakfree CLP as a general-purpose gun cleaner and lubricant. I started using Ballistol for cleaning blackpowder guns, though, and I've found it works as well as CLP as a general cleaner, and is a good protectant and rust preventer. Unlike a lot of other cleaning solvents, it's non-toxic, and doesn't eat brass brushes or harm plastics and gunstock finishes. Ballistol and water, AKA "Moose Milk", is very good for cleaning up after firing corrosive primed surplus ammo, as well as blackpowder.
 
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