Looking for good long-range-accuracy rifle

[learnedmonkey]

Uh....hi! I've been lurking for a while after being referred by a few gun folks over at arstechnica.com's forums. I've gotten a lot of helpful info just lurking, but sometimes it's hard to find specific info, so I guess it's time to register and contribute.

I'm not looking to buy right now, so don't let price factor too much into any recommendations (although go ahead and warn me if it's a real high-price item). Basically what I'm looking for is a good reliable rifle that fires medium-to-high powered rounds very accurately, is friendly with both good scopes and barrel sights, and won't refuse to come out of its dressing room if the weather conditions aren't sunny and warm. Semi-automatic is a plus, but bolt action is just fine so long as it's capable of accepting detachable mags or stripper clips. If it doesn't dislocate my shoulder or pop the fillings out of my teeth I'll be happy. Some customization required is OK, but after refinishing my Yugo SKS stock with hand-rubbed linseed oil, something that I can just buy new at a gun dealer and shoot with out of the box would be preferable. Military surplus recommendations are also welcome, so long as the models are reasonably easy to find and obtain in good condition.

Like I said, don't worry about price too much, but of course everybody likes paying lower sums better than they do higher sums.

 

[duckfoot]

Basically what I'm looking for is a good reliable rifle that fires medium-to-high powered rounds very accurately, is friendly with both good scopes and barrel sights, and won't refuse to come out of its dressing room if the weather conditions aren't sunny and warm. Semi-automatic is a plus, but bolt action is just fine so long as it's capable of accepting detachable mags or stripper clips. If it doesn't dislocate my shoulder or pop the fillings out of my teeth I'll be happy. Some customization required is OK, but after refinishing my Yugo SKS stock with hand-rubbed linseed oil, something that I can just buy new at a gun dealer and shoot with out of the box would be preferable. Military surplus recommendations are also welcome, so long as the models are reasonably easy to find and obtain in good condition.

That would be a AR15 in a varmint or NM/DMC/CMP format

 

[Sharpshooter223]

^^ he's right. Another rifle you may consider is the remington 700 varmit model in .308 or .223. They run about $650. Throw on a nice scope and it shoots half inch groups out of the box. My .223 did anyways i'm guessing the .308 shoots about the same. Very nice durable rifle and it shot half inch groups with every kind of ammo I ran through it. The hornady V-max 40 and 50 grain both consistantly shot about a 1/4 inch.

 

[dbshabo]

If price is no object then the whole universe of precision rifles is open to you. You could get one of the premier rifle makers in the country to build you a custom rig.

I think you need to decide how serious you want to get with precision shooting. If you get very serious about it you can spend some serious $$ in a hurry. You need a quality rig, quality optics, and will want to reload to tweak your load to your rifle. You'll also need lots and lots of range time to become proficient with your new toy.

On the other hand if you want to get a rifle that will allow you to shoot out to 800 - 1000 yards with the possibility of putting together some good groups then there a number of factory rifles out there that will fill that niche quite nicely. The Remington 700 seems to be what most people will recommend because it has been around forever and has a proven track record. I personally went with the Savage 10FP-LE2B in .308, just cause I'm a contrarian I guess. I put a Leupold VXIII 4.5-14X50mm M1 LR scope on it and a Harris bipod. Now I can go out and play sniper at my gun club, and I must admit it is lots of fun and quite challenging. Out to ~300yds. I'm deadly, past that the elements, including myself, start to play an increasing role in terms of accuracy. For what I paid for this rifle, outa the box accuracy is excellent. The AccuTrigger is very sweet and the McMillan stock is also quite nice. All in all a very nice rig for a reasonable price.

One rifle that I considered was the CZ 550 Laminated. I chose the Savage over this gun mainly because the Savage is made in the USA. Sako and Tikka have interesting choices in the long range category. You don't hear much about Winchester for precision rifles but I have read many favorable posts about them. FN makes a very nice rifle in a number of configurations, a bit pricey for my budget however.

If www.ar15.com ever comes back on line go there to the precision rifle section in the Armory category. There is a guy there who's board name is Celt. He is a custom rig maker and is full of good info about these rifles. Many other knowledgable and helpful folks there also.

Shabo

 

[RTFM]

learnedmonkey, welcome to THR. I'll have to agree with duckfoot.
AR-15 would be my choice also.

RTFM

 

[Will Fennell]

There's long range, and then there's LONG RANGE

Learnedmonkey,
First, how far do you consider "long range"? and then, is your goal to shoot at long range with enough power to take game animals, or simply punch holes in paper?

These factors will greatly shape your needs. For me and my needs as a big game hunter, long range means 250-450 yards. I need a cartridge that if shooting conditions are in my favor, is capable of delivering a round, with sufficent reaming velocity/energy, with a minimal amount of "hold over" on a target[kill zone of a deer or slightly bigger animal] out to 400-450 yards.

This means a pointy bullet of at least .25 calliber[slightly bigger prefered on my part], wieghing at least 120 grns, with remaining velocity at the target distance of atleast 1850fps, 2000 fps prefered. This is for deer sized animals, ......if bigger animals are planned, the bullet diameter and weight need to go up!

If you take a look at some velocity charts that give remaining speed at extended distances, you realize that it takes pretty substancial cartridges to meet these needs.

These are MY needs.....I've got a few rifles in the safe that meet these needs, and a couple that don't[for instance my favorite .308 bolt gun simply doesn't have enough remaining velocity @ 450 yrds, and there for can't be counted on for clean kills and drops way to much for easy hits]. I'm currently working up a TIKKA T3 in .270 WSM that should fill the bill nicely. For the money, its a rifle that I would highly recommend....it surely is shooting great groups, with very high velocity, right out of the box!

Again, these are my needs and solutions. For your solutions, we need to know more about your needs

 

[TX65]

Since you mention semi-auto,,, an AR15 is the way to go. If you don't reload, stay with .223 because Black Hills can supply you with quality ammo at a reasonable price. However, you will find that the most potent factory loaded round (Sierra or Nosler 77) is stretching its limits by 600 yards.

If you do reload, your options expand farther. For long range accuracy shooting, Alexander Arms is releasing the 6.5 Grendel in February 2004. They will have complete rifles, uppers, dies, magazines, loaded ammo or empty brass. This cartridge has the legs for use out to 1,000 yards and is very accurate. In addition, the cartridge has the power for a variety of hunting uses including deer, boar and hogs. Shotgun News had a 4 page article in October on it and there is a website covering some of the cartridge's development.

http://www.competitionshooting.com

If georgraphic orientation prevents ownership of an AR15. Best option then is to go bolt action. Remington 700 or Model 7 can always be a good choice. Other options would be a Kimber 84M or Cooper of Montana. One of the best rounds for accuracy with modest recoil is the 260 Remington if you want more umph then the .223 Remington. Tikka also makes a nice rifle,,, the 595 Sporter.

 

[Steve Smith]

All the rifles in the world won't make you a rifleman.


I have no doubt that duckfoot and TX65 would agree.


My suggestion would be the same as duckfoot's, with the addition of being involved with a Highpower Rifle program.

 

[TX65]

Steve,

Very true,,, a great rifleman can make an average rifle sing.

 

[duckfoot]

Steve's made a very good point.

When I was just getting the kinks out of being new to High Power shooting, we had a corporal enter his first match armed with a stock Bushmaster and what he learned in recruit training. Halfway through the match I and a few other shooters around him heard him say that his rifle was crap or his ammo was crap, as a matter of fact he blamed about every piece he had for why he was dropping points. An Old Salt shooting on the far side of him explained that while true that the rifle was not a riflesmith tuned High Power rifle he should not blame it for dropping 3's and 4's in his 200 yrd slow fire and made a few suggestions on positions and sling work. And to make the point stick that old salt switched rifles with the corporal at 300yrds and still outshot the corporal, me, and a lot of other shooters (talk about floored, because it cost that old salt some points for just proving a point). Well I never saw that corporal again but I was headed for another trip over seas anyway, but that lesson was not wasted on just that corporal for I tell this story again and again to anyone looking to getting into high power.

Thanks Steve, for reminding me!!

 

[Zak Smith]

It seems like a lot of IPSC guys shooting the manually-operated-rifle long-range class shoot one of these in a caliber like 6XC.

http://www.mcbrosrifles.com/tubb_2000.htm

-z

 

[bogie]

What's this "needs a magazine or stripper clips" thing?

Accuracy means not needing a "follow up" shot. You're not there to spray and pray until you run out of ammo. Make shot #1 count, and you don't need #2.

 

[Zak Smith]

bogie,

20 targets at 400-800 yards. 20 shots. Mags will take less time.

-z

 

[Publicola]

I'm admitedly biased but I'd recommend an M1 Garand in .30-06. IMO it's the best semi-auto platform there is.

 

[learnedmonkey]

Hey, thanks for all the replies. I've got some options to consider...I looked up the AR-15 after duckfoot's reply and it's got a lot of things going for it.

As for my needs, I don't plan to become either a clocktower sniper or a hunter, so realistically what I need it for is target practice. I wouldn't go so far as to say money is no object; I'm presently unemployed and have a large student loan debt to start chipping away at as soon as I can find work. What I meant regarding price was that I didn't want to eliminate more spendy rifles off the bat just because they cost more. If I decide I really like a more expensive model, it just means I'll be saving up for it longer. I've got a couple of good rifles already and several good ranges in the area, so I'm not in any hurry.

I simply am interested in guns that are suited to a variety of uses. The SKS is a good solid, reliable shooter and I'm very happy with the purchase, and my old Mossberg .22 LR is limited in accuracy only by my skill. But I don't have the heart to alter either of these old beauties, so the only solution is another rifle; one that's at least as frisky as the SKS but with better marksmanship potential. Again, from what I've read after duckfoot's rec, the AR-15 seems like a good contender for my purposes...a multi-thousand dollar custom job that cleans itself, sights and shoots around corners, and fetches my slippers would definitely be wasted on my present skills.

Thanks again all!

 

[hillbilly]

learnedmonkey

Check out this site.

These guys can teach you how to shoot long range precision.

http://www.badlandstactical.net


I've had two of their classes.....Basic and Advanced Phase I.

Knowledge is power.

Read their requirements for the courses.

I use a Remington 700 Varmint Synthetic in .308. The scope on it costs about twice as much as the rifle.

I've seen students do just fine down at Badlands with a Savage rifle with a good scope on it.

hillbilly

 

[Detritus]

You don't hear much about Winchester for precision rifles but I have read many favorable posts about them. FN makes a very nice rifle in a number of configurations, a bit pricey for my budget however.

just for clarity's sake, currently this is a case of "Same rilfe(s) different maker'sl marks"

the much touted "FN Uber-boltgun" is a Winchester M-70 in fancy dress... (IE that rather fancy FN herstal crest). if i understand correctly PN does not make the guns, or if they do... they're ALSO making the regular M-70 right along side.

in other words, If you want the FN without the price.. look up it's specs then find the Winchester M-70 that matches.

NOW.........

In light of your requirements (esp the need for mag or stripper clip use) i'm going to go along with what has been said previously, and suggest something on an AR platform.

this suggestion is dependent on a number of things, what you define as "long range" if your personal shooting limit is 600yards/meters or less then a top of the line AR-15 will work just about as well as anything else you could find/field.
beyound that thigns get a little more dependant on other factors.

and who knows by the time you get ready to actually BUY this gun your needs/wants/requirements might have changed.

 

[redneck2]

'Nuther thought...

might consider an AR-10.....the .308 version of the AR-15..if you would want a heavier caliber. Accuracy should be on par with the AR-15

Still, as above, I'd prolly go with the .223, fast twist for heavy bullets. Mebbe Rock River Arms. In terms of "accuracy" rifles, they're pretty reasonable. Little or no recoil. Cheap to shoot. Your accuracy will depend mostly on trigger time.

 

[uglygun]

A lot of what has been mentioned is all highly valuable information.

For an accurate semiauto, I'm of the opinion that there is little out there that can compete with the AR15 action in terms of inherent accuracy right out of the box. Even non-freefloated "blaster" AR15s can shoot surprisingly well until heat works into their barrel and the non-freefloated barrel starts to be effected by contact with the handguards.


One more reason why I believe the AR15 makes for a great target rifle is due to the semiauto action, it helps to further dampen recoil and helps the shooter to concentrate more on technique. Compare to going directly to a "long range" bolt action and spending a lot of time getting over recoil and learning to shoot.


I learned a LOT of the basics of marksmanship while shooting a tuned AR15. Less time spent fighting the rifle and more time spent learning how to adjust for trajectory, wind, and simply focusing on shooting technique. The AR has made an excellent varmint rifle as well with hits out to 400 yards and having near misses out to 500-600 yards, no confirmed yet though

After all that, my latest long range rifle I've begun to shoot is a bolt action 300WinMag. Not exactly a firearm that is condusive to being able to shoot for extended periods of time while maintaining concentration. I have little doubt that if such a rifle had been my first purchase, I would have developed poor technique or taken longer to learn how to shoot.


As for precision semiautos, doesn't neccesarily have to be an AR15 in 223Remington. Armalite and DPMS both make semiautos in the AR15 style, the Armalite AR10(also the sister company "Eagle Arms") and DPMS 308Winchester both offering some real performance in terms of accuracy. My non-freefloated AR10 with a 20inch barrel has a handload that is averaging right at 1 inch for 5 shots at 100 yards before the groups open up due to the barrel heating up, if I have the barrel freefloated with a new handguard setup it's likely I will gain a bit of consistency and possibly even gain a bit more accuracy. The AR10s don't come too cheap though, about double what a target configuration AR15 would run.


After the above rifles, I'd say a bolt action in 223Rem or 308Win. Wide variety of both rifles and ammo are available, cheap blasting ammo readily available and good quality match ammo...

 

[vanfunk]

Just a note on the FN bolt actions-
As was previously mentioned, they are manufactured by USRAC aka Winchester, albeit in a special, "sealed off" area of the plant. However, there is no current Winchester offering that matches the FN rifles in any respect, with the exception of the trigger. The FN SPR is a CRF action, and the bolt is matched and trued to the action (no Winchester target guns are controlled round feed - not a big deal to many). The barrel is quite unusual in that it is chrome lined. Chrome lining is usually seen as a hindrance to precision shooting, but it doesn't seem to hamper these rifles to any degree. All current production FN SPR's are now mated to McMillan stocks of various configurations. Each one is, by rights, a "semi-custom" offering, roughly akin (in 1911-world) to Ed Brown or Wilson Combat 1911's. My 1st gen SPR shot BH 168's into the same hole at 100 yds with utterly boring regularity.

Now, with all that said, is the FN really worth the $1200-$1600 to a new shooter? Only if they have the funds to burn. I've owned, seen and borrowed Rem 700's and Win 70's (and heard enough about Savages) that'll do 1/2" groups with alarming regularity. The FN is the better gun, unquestionably. Does it really matter to a beginning rifleman? Only if it does, I guess .

vanfunk

Sorry! Edited to add... sounds like an AR-15 is in your future. Buy one, shoot it, love it, then let them go forth and multiply.

 

[sasnofear]

theres lots of rifles there learnedmonkey, however to you what is long range (as some1 brought up earlier in the post) because deer hunters may thing 400 is long range where as ppl who varmint or more likly target shooters think long range is 600-1000yrds

 

[hillbilly]

Learnedmonkey.....I wanted to say again that having the knowledge and the skill is a lot more important than rifle choice.

Once you learn how to shoot correctly, you can perform pretty well even with a $69 surplus Mauser.

You won't do as well as with the latest, greatest, whiz-bang equipment.

But a trained, skilled shooter with a $69 surplus Mauser is much more effective than an unskilled, untrained shooter with $10,000 worth of gear and equipment.

Like I said, down at Badlands, I have seen guys with Savage rifles and off-brand scopes outdo guys with thousands of dollars invested in their gear.

Get your equipment, but then shell out some cash to get other expert, learnedmonkeys to teach you how to use that equipment to the full extent of its potential.

hillbilly