I know not to buy Federal and expect to reload their brass due to soft brass, but now Winchester is making soft brass too? I just finished prepping over 100 pieces of 22-250 brass (58 Win and 42 Privi Partizan) and of this brass all but maybe a dozen pieces of the Winchester brass I could push the primers into the primer pocket 3/4 of the way with my thumb. This Winchester ammo was fired by me so I know it has never been reloaded before. I am using Winchester primers (LR) so I would think they should fit properly in Winchester brass. This is the second lot of Winchester brass I've had lately with oversized primer pockets (the other was .243 but I assumed this was loading too close to the max). Anybody have any suggestions for 22-250 brass that can be reloaded more than once or twice? Someone posted a graphic earlier today showing the primer blowing out of the primer pocket and hitting the bolt face and bouncing back into the primer pocket (at least this is what I thought I was seeing). If this is true, how tight do primers need to be in the primer pocket? Finally, are any large rifle primers larger than Winchester LR primers? I hate throwing away this many pieces of once fired brass. Thanks!
Loose Win 22-250 Primer Pockets - Once Fired!!
- Thread starter PCCUSNRET
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Kerf
Member
parker51,
I've had good success with Norma brass; they seem to last forever.
If you're experiencing loose primers you may want to back off your load a tad, forget what it says in the manuals. Reloading manuals always suggest you start low and work up to max slowly and if you encounter any sign of high pressure to back off a bit. Loose primers are a sign of high pressure in your reloads. Maybe try a different bullet/powder combination and see how that goes. You may have a tight chamber or short leade which is causing that higher pressure. Once a primer pocket is enlarged, there's not much you can do with it, other than the scrap bucket.
Kerf
I've had good success with Norma brass; they seem to last forever.
If you're experiencing loose primers you may want to back off your load a tad, forget what it says in the manuals. Reloading manuals always suggest you start low and work up to max slowly and if you encounter any sign of high pressure to back off a bit. Loose primers are a sign of high pressure in your reloads. Maybe try a different bullet/powder combination and see how that goes. You may have a tight chamber or short leade which is causing that higher pressure. Once a primer pocket is enlarged, there's not much you can do with it, other than the scrap bucket.
Kerf
snuffy
Member
Parker, I could be wrong, but the way I read this is; this was factory ammo?
If it was new brass bought by you, then whatever the load was is too hot. Primer pockets don't expand enough to allow primers to seat that easily without getting above the 70,000 PSI range.
Factory ammo is usually loaded hot to agree with their claims of velocity. But not so hot as to be dangerous. They consider the case to be expendable as far as reloading goes. So loose primer pockets does NOT concern them.
capreppy
Member
Have you tried other primer brands? CCI maybe?
These weren't my reloads, they were factory loads. It was this Winchester ammunition:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=157977
I bought 10 boxes of this ammo with the intention of having fire forming the brass for reloading. A fellow at the range was shooting some of the Privi Partizan a couple of weeks ago and gave me about 40 pieces of this brass. I had trimmed it all, cleaned the primer pockets with one of the wire brush cleaners and was all set to prime and load. Oh well, looks like another 60 pieces of brass headed for the scrap yard if the CCI primers don't fit better than the Winchester. Couldn't believe the PPU brass has tighter pockets than the Winchester brass. I should have suspected something was wrong with this brass when a couple of these rounds had split necks on their initial firing. Looks like I'll have try Lapua or Privi Paritzan if I want to reload for this gun.
The gun is a fairly new Remington 700 VLS .22-250 Varmint w/bull barrel with only about 120 through it. Will say that the ammunition was very accurate, just very disappointed that the brass is not reloadable.
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewproduct/?productnumber=157977
I bought 10 boxes of this ammo with the intention of having fire forming the brass for reloading. A fellow at the range was shooting some of the Privi Partizan a couple of weeks ago and gave me about 40 pieces of this brass. I had trimmed it all, cleaned the primer pockets with one of the wire brush cleaners and was all set to prime and load. Oh well, looks like another 60 pieces of brass headed for the scrap yard if the CCI primers don't fit better than the Winchester. Couldn't believe the PPU brass has tighter pockets than the Winchester brass. I should have suspected something was wrong with this brass when a couple of these rounds had split necks on their initial firing. Looks like I'll have try Lapua or Privi Paritzan if I want to reload for this gun.
The gun is a fairly new Remington 700 VLS .22-250 Varmint w/bull barrel with only about 120 through it. Will say that the ammunition was very accurate, just very disappointed that the brass is not reloadable.
Hi Snuffy,
I understand this and I know it is a dice roll every time you shoot factory ammunition with the hope of using the brass again for reloading. Still as a reloader, I thought others should be aware that if they buy this ammo with the intention of reloading the brass they may be disappointed. I know I will look for another brand (perhaps Privi, RP or PMC) from now on.
With my conspiracy cap on, my theory is that these companies are deliberately making this brass soft to keep reloaders from reusing their brass, forcing us to buy their unfired brass for reloading. I know I won't be buying any more Winchester 22-250 or Federal 270, 308 or 7mm brass or ammo due to my personal experience with soft brass from these two companies.
snuffy
Member
Parker, this is a good thread for new loaders to read, because it tells them they COULD find the primer pocket to be too big from once fired factory loads.
You are correct about the federal head stamped brass being way too soft. I still pick it up, BUT it goes in the scrap bucket as soon as I sort them. Not even worth the bother to load once!
You are correct about the federal head stamped brass being way too soft. I still pick it up, BUT it goes in the scrap bucket as soon as I sort them. Not even worth the bother to load once!
Funshooter45
Member
I haven't had these issues with any brass other than my 7 MM Mag. I have used Win, Rem, and Fed brass in .243, 270 WSM, .308, and .325 WSM with no issues at all regarding loose primer pockets. A few of the .270 WSM Federal brass have split the necks on the 3rd firing, but not many. But in my 7 MM Mag brass, the Federal brass has sort of loose primer pockets after 2 firings, but is usually good for about 4 firings. That was on brass that started life as factory ammo. Rem brass starts to show somewhat loos primers after the 3rd firing, but they usually are good for a couple more. The Winchester brass has been the best so far in all my rifle calibers as far as primer pockets go. I have not used enough Hornady brass to really comment and I have never used the Lapua or Nosler brass, nor any of the super cheap stuff either.
Until now, the only problems I've had with Winchester brass was some .243 that I apparently loaded too hot (under recommended max, but still expanded the pockets enough to make the brass unusable). Other than this I have loaded .223, .308, 270, 30-06 and other Winchester brass with no problems. I would be very curious to know if anyone else has loaded any of this Super-X 22-250 w/55gr bullets more than once. If yes, then perhaps this was just a bad lot of brass. I found 100 pieces of Lapua 22-250 brass for $62 (plus shipping) at Powder Valley so I will give it a try.
FROGO207
Member
You could try some Wolf primers as in my reloading adventures they are ALWAYS harder to seat than any others. You may be able to get at least one more reload from your present brass before scrapping it. This is what I do with mine that have larger primer pockets. Then I scrap the ones with the odd colored primers. I also treat the primers as same as WLP AND WLR for energy purposes as this is what works in my firearms. Always do work up your own loads to see if it is the same for you, some have had different results than I did.
243winxb
Member
Measure new brass/ammo on the web area. On firing , if web expands .0005" or more, your pressure is to high. Your pockets will become loose also, soon or later.
FROGO207
Member
I have reloaded some older Win 22-250 brass at least 4 times before it was scrapped. I know Reloader Fred uses a lot of 22-250, maybe he will see this thread and relate his experience.
I still have 5 boxes of this ammo to shoot up so I will try measuring it prior to shooting next time at the range. Another thing that was odd about this brass, it would not fit back into the chamber by neck sizing it. It had expanded so much at the case head that I had to use the full size die cranked down to 1/4 turn extra after the die touched the shellholder. My guess is these were loaded hot at the factory and this has caused the pockets to become oversized. I am going to pick up some Wolf primers to see if they will work better than the Winchester.
gamestalker
member
That's really strange. I've been loading full power house loads since I started reloading some 3 decades ago and have never had a primer pocket get loose on me, even after more than a dozen cycles. I load .270 win., 7mm rem. mag., 30-06, .243 win., 9mm, .40 cal. .357 mag. 44 mag., just to name a few and all are operating at maximum pressures. I use various brands of brass, nothing high quality, just plain factory once fired Federal, Winchester, Remington primarily. I can't help but think it has to be something your doing that is causing the problem, a problem I hear a good deal about with other reloaders as well. Do you possibly over prep the primer pockets when your cleaning them?
I use one of the RCBS Primer Pocket Brushes by hand to clean out the pocket:
http://www.midwayusa.com/viewProduct/default.aspx?productNumber=328046
I don't remove any material from the side of the primer pockets. The only thing I have been doing different lately is using NuFinish polish in my tumbler to help clean the brass prior to inserting the primers. Funny thing is though, the pockets were still tight on the Privi Paritizan so I still think it is this particular brass and not the polish or my cleaning method (which I have been doing the same way for over 10 years now). As mentioned above I will measure some of these cases next time I'm at the range and will let you know what I find out regarding the stretching of these cases.
Funshooter45
Member
I'm glad this thread came up because it gives me an idea to try for my own reloading. As mentioned, about the only time I have issues with loose primer pockets have been with some 7 mm mag brass. I almost forgot about them but I have about 1500 Wolf LRMag primers I bought during the Great Primer Shortage a couple years ago. For a time, I simply couldn't find LRM primers at all except for them. I loaded a few of them and they shot OK I guess, but as soon as I could get CCI and Win LRM primers I went back to those. As I recall, I did notice that the Wolf primers were harder to seat than the others. They might just be a way of getting another firing or two in some of my Federal brass.
trapper500
member
Loose PrimerPockets
I have some Rem 300 Weatherby thats 9 yrs old & i am still using them i have not ever had any real problems with primer pockets of course i keep a close check on all points of my brass during thier life span & i use Wolf primers & they are diffcult to seat at times
I have some Rem 300 Weatherby thats 9 yrs old & i am still using them i have not ever had any real problems with primer pockets of course i keep a close check on all points of my brass during thier life span & i use Wolf primers & they are diffcult to seat at times
bigedp51
member
Your head gap clearance determines how far your primers can move, if you don't have gas leakage or the primers are not falling out then what does loose mean. The primer is a piston, it moves back and forth and as long as it doesn't leak you have a seal.
Get larger diameter primers, or get new brass and welcome to the world of American quality control and company profits.
1. After still further decline in business, Olin announced the sale of its Brass Division in October 2007, but as by now had become a tradition sold it for a loss of $140 million in the sale. Olin Brass is now owned by Global Brass. By this act, Olin had reduced itself to just ammunition and chlor-alkali production and sales. Although the ammunition business was booming due to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, Olin has since 2004 been slowly moving pieces of Winchester from unionized East Alton to union-free Oxford, Mississippi,[10] starting with rimfire cartridge production, then load and pack operations, and now announcement of moving the Winchester Ammunition centerfire manufacturing to Oxford, Mississippi after the union voted down ratification twice to keep the jobs in Illinois for at least seven years with a new concessions plan. This would end 120 years of Winchester operations in East Alton, the home of the Olins who created it, and complete the breaking of the long legacy of its start there and its ties to the famous Olin family, and continue the decline of what was, under John M. Olin, one of America's great companies.
There is currently a high demand for Winchester ammunition, as the United States is facing an ammunition shortage. Valerie Peters, Director of Human Resources at Winchester, stated in 2009 that "Our facilities continue to run 24/7 to meet demand. We would not be in a position to say when demand may decrease."Yet with this high demand, Olin still sees declines in profitability.
2. Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP) is a 3,935-acre government-owned, contractor-operated facility in Independence, Missouri that was established by Remington Arms in 1941 to manufacture and test small caliber ammunition for the U.S. Army. The facility has remained in continuous operation except for one 5-year period following World War II. As of July 2007, the plant produced nearly 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition per year.
Remington Arms operated the plant from its inception until 1985, when operations were taken over by Olin Corporation. Since April 2001, it has been operated by Alliant Techsystems (ATK). LCAAP is the single largest producer of small arms ammunition for the United States military.
Winchester lost the contract to produce ammunition for the military in 2001 and then sold off its brass division in 2007.
Question: Why are competitive shooters buying brass cartridge cases made in Finland?
Now guess why your primer pockets are loose as a Goose.............
[image removed]
Get larger diameter primers, or get new brass and welcome to the world of American quality control and company profits.
1. After still further decline in business, Olin announced the sale of its Brass Division in October 2007, but as by now had become a tradition sold it for a loss of $140 million in the sale. Olin Brass is now owned by Global Brass. By this act, Olin had reduced itself to just ammunition and chlor-alkali production and sales. Although the ammunition business was booming due to the Iraq and Afghanistan wars, Olin has since 2004 been slowly moving pieces of Winchester from unionized East Alton to union-free Oxford, Mississippi,[10] starting with rimfire cartridge production, then load and pack operations, and now announcement of moving the Winchester Ammunition centerfire manufacturing to Oxford, Mississippi after the union voted down ratification twice to keep the jobs in Illinois for at least seven years with a new concessions plan. This would end 120 years of Winchester operations in East Alton, the home of the Olins who created it, and complete the breaking of the long legacy of its start there and its ties to the famous Olin family, and continue the decline of what was, under John M. Olin, one of America's great companies.
There is currently a high demand for Winchester ammunition, as the United States is facing an ammunition shortage. Valerie Peters, Director of Human Resources at Winchester, stated in 2009 that "Our facilities continue to run 24/7 to meet demand. We would not be in a position to say when demand may decrease."Yet with this high demand, Olin still sees declines in profitability.
2. Lake City Army Ammunition Plant (LCAAP) is a 3,935-acre government-owned, contractor-operated facility in Independence, Missouri that was established by Remington Arms in 1941 to manufacture and test small caliber ammunition for the U.S. Army. The facility has remained in continuous operation except for one 5-year period following World War II. As of July 2007, the plant produced nearly 1.4 billion rounds of ammunition per year.
Remington Arms operated the plant from its inception until 1985, when operations were taken over by Olin Corporation. Since April 2001, it has been operated by Alliant Techsystems (ATK). LCAAP is the single largest producer of small arms ammunition for the United States military.
Winchester lost the contract to produce ammunition for the military in 2001 and then sold off its brass division in 2007.
Question: Why are competitive shooters buying brass cartridge cases made in Finland?
Now guess why your primer pockets are loose as a Goose.............
[image removed]
Last edited by a moderator:
BigEd,
Thanks for your input. It was your graphics that I was referring to in my original post regarding the primer hitting the bolt face and bouncing back into the primer pocket. Your explanation about what is happening with this company pretty much sums it up when it comes to why the pockets were loose on this brass.
Thanks for your input. It was your graphics that I was referring to in my original post regarding the primer hitting the bolt face and bouncing back into the primer pocket. Your explanation about what is happening with this company pretty much sums it up when it comes to why the pockets were loose on this brass.
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