Low primer depth in 12 guage causing misfires.

[Bibbyman]

I've been loading 12 guage light loads for the past several months without a problem. Last week I bought 500 Winchester AA gray Super Handicap hulls supposedly once fired. Of the first 25, I had two misfires. I measured the primer depth on the two misfired shells and found the depth to be .025 and .027 deep. The firing pin made a good dent but apparently didn't strike hard enough.

I loaded another 25 and was carefully with the primer seating pressure. I measured each primer depth and most ranged from .006 to .010. A few were more and some up to .018 deep. I had one misfire on this batch that's primer depth was .016 before being struck by firing pin.

What is the permissible primer depth limits? Is there any way to check the case before wasting time reloading it?

Before obtaining the Winchester AA hulls, I've been reloading Remington and a few Federal hulls and didn't have this problem. I'm using Winchester 209 primers.

 

[Reinz]

This can be a sticky problem? I don't know what primer depth limits are. But I can give you a few caveats from personal experience and from what I've been told.

I had a Double that had the same issue with Winch Primers. I switched to Rem and problem solved. It appeared that the Rem primers stand about a millimeter or so taller in the pocket. Just enough for the firing pin to make the contact needed.

Now I've been told that CCI and Fiocchi primers stretch the pocket being that they are larger in diameter. Once you use those, you must stay with those. If you switch back to Win/Rem you end up with loose primers. I have seen the spec sheet to support this story.

Good Luck

 

[243winxb]

If to much pressure is used on seating the primer, the case head may become concaved. This moves the primer away from the firing pin. If this is part of the problem, scrap the hull. http://www.saami.org/specifications_and_information/publications/download/209.pdf

 

[blarby]

^^^^ this ^^^^

I've done it seating "rough" primers, and its a sad end to an otherwise good hull.

You can check the concavity with a marble.

 

[Bibbyman]

I'm loading on a Lee Loadall 2. When I first discovered deep primer seat I suspected I had gotten over zealous with the priming pressure. The priming step also involves pushing the sizing ring off the base of the hull. If that requires extra effort, then the follow through can be pretty hard. But on the second 25 I was careful with this step and tried to be more gentile. But still had deep set primers. (Maybe I'll try pushing the ring off and then priming in two steps? )

I suspect that not all my "once fired" hulls are once fired. I even took samples back to where I bought them to show. But was assured they were once fired. Some of them deprime with more effort than others. These tend to have proper primer seating depth.

I haven't had this problem with other hull brands - even those I've loaded several times.

Another annoying thing is happening. I'm having a few that the hull buckles when crimped. They buckle where the base part ends. I brought this up with the gunshop that sold them to me and he said that often happens with AA hulls no matter what machine they are loaded with and that they will shoot just fine. But once buckled, they will buckle every time.

I know one thing, I won't buy any more AA hulls!

 

[plmitch]

Bibbyman, please post a picture of the buckled AA hulls. I have never seen this problem.

 

[Rico567]

I just finished loading about 1K AAs, and I did run into several hulls where the head was concaved in. Since I was inspecting these before loading, no problem, I just discarded the offending hulls. I've never had a shotgun fail to fire due to a primer, but I've had a few of those embarrassing moments where the shot just kind of pitches a few yards out of the barrel and I have to poke the wad out- "somebody" didn't drop powder!

 

[Bibbyman]

I have a few others but this is the best worst example.

 

[bulabula]

I wondered about the once fired comment. Fiocchis are primer socket stretchers. I use them exclusively and have no worries. I prefer reloading remington hulls now. Years ago i could interchange AA and Rems, but not so much anymore. In your pic, the stack in the hull is too long. Either to much shot, a longer wad or the powder is taking up too much room. Not saying your doing it wrong, but maybe try a different recipe. Do the remingtons look like that? I prefer the green and gold hulls these days.

 

[Bibbyman]

I've reloaded a lot for many years but only recently taken up loading shotgun shells. I have no experience with other presses. But the Lee Loadall 2 requires a lot of "feel" to get things right. There is no wad depth stop or crimp stop. So it's possible to not get the wad seated uniformly or to over or under crimp.

I'm using the Claybuster CB178 "gray" wad with 7/8 oz of shot. I took one of the buckled loads up to the gunshop and showed the guy that has been my mentor on loading. I was thinking maybe this wad was not right for AA two-piece hulls. But he said they were fine and sometimes AAs just buckle.

I have loaded Remington STS, Gun Club, Fieocchi (only a few) and Federal field loads hulls. I've had a few screwup but not deep primers or buckles.

 

[Reinz]

"Buckling just happens with AA hulls"? HORSEHOCKEY!!

I've been loading shot shells for 45 years and I can tell you that buckling is operator error and/or your machine is not adjusted corrected for precrimp and/or final crimp.

As Bulabula said the likely culprit is too much stacking, i.e., too much material inside the hull.
Then when you crimp it buckles where there is no support, depending on what kind of machine /die you use, the force will travel down to the path of least resistance.

If your crimp station is out of adjustment (too short/tight), this should be oblivious.

Believe it or not, the precrimp can throw off the final crimp.

This mentor may have done a good job getting you started. And maybe his mentor told him buckling was acceptable. But he is lacking some understanding here.

 

[oneounceload]

I'm having a few that the hull buckles when crimped. They buckle where the base part ends.]

That is caused by too much crimp pressure and since you can not adjust a LLA, you can have these issues, which is one reason most folks go to a MEC for a beginning loader

What is your recipe?

 

[Bibbyman]

The Lee Loadall 2 has no adjustment for wad depth, start crimp, crimp or primer seat. It's all done by feel and experience.

The buckling is likely my error. My second 25 rounds looked better than the first with only a slight wrinkle in a couple. But it's a new development for me. I've only loaded some 500 shotgun hulls and had some overstuffed and some under but none buckled. And none misfired so I assume primers were seated to some passable depth.

 

[oneounceload]

I know it doesn't which is why I sold mine over 30 years ago and bought a real reloader; one where I can adjust everything

 

[gamestalker]

That's a tough one for me, cause I've never experienced a mis fire with any cartridge I reloaded, metallic or shot shells. It does sound as though you may be applying too much pressure though. Priming hulls is a bit different in how they feel compared to metallic when seated all the way.

If you can't attain a proper crimp that will stay closed without buckling the hull, then you need to find a different hull / recipe and components. Or you may be over crimping, thus producing too much pressure on the hull. Also make sure the wad is completely seating against the powder charge.

GS

 

[IM391]

Three answers;
1) If your shells were previously loaded with CCI or Nobel primers which will change the depth the next time they are loaded
2) Check your priming station...the machine should never change the depth unless pellets are in the primer holder or the support primer cup arm is improperly installed.
3) You may have a weak or very dirty firing pin and spring. Clean and lubricate them well. I have a MEC grabber and almost exclusively load AA, AA Western and AA Handicap with no problem shooting out of Beretta, Savage and Weatherby shotguns for last 10 years. I load 5,000 a year and may get 1 bad primer/year.

 

[IM391]

For Bibbyman the crease in the middle or bottom of the shell is cause by inconsistent pressure on your crimp closure die. On you machine look for a arching like cam above the closing crimp station. There will be an allen screw along the lead edge. Loossen it and move it usually up 1/32 of an inch. Tighten and run a few shells and that will correct your problem. Once the side of the shell is buckled, the crease will never come out.