209A Misfires?

[Olon]

Fellow reloaders,

Over the summer, I got fed up with paying $14 a box for 16 ga. shells. I bought a load-all, some Hi-Skor 800x powder and a big box of 209A primers. Getting wads to work was a royal pain which ended up being resolved with 3 kidney beans under every payload but that's another story. The reason I'm starting this thread is because I've seen some difficulties regarding those 209A primers.

1 out of every 25 or so loads will fail to shoot. I'm using a Winchester Model 12 (made in 1941) and the hulls I'm using are "super X" Winchester (cheddite?). Upon inspecting the shell, The ones that fail have a small dent in the primer so it looks like the firing pin is not striking the primer hard enough. Usually if I try it another time or two it works but since I hunt with them that's obviously not ideal. Looking at the original primers, the indentation is usually much deeper than on the 209A.

My question is this: are these 209A primers "harder" than factory primers on Winchester Super X 16ga loads? Is there a difference in seating depth that affects the pin's ability to get a deep enough whack? OR is it a weak/worn out hammer spring? Please bear with me as I'm a greenie in the world of reloading. Your wisdom and experience is greatly appreciated.

Thanks for your time, folks.

 

[ArchAngelCD]

I'm no expert on shotshell loading, I only assist a friend. Since you are new and said you had trouble with the wads i want to remind you unlike other reloading you must follow the shotshell recipe exactly are written. You have to used the exact components as listed.

You asked about springs, do you ever have trouble with factory ammo? I'm guess in those 209a primers are made by Federal? Are they the primers in the recipe? Sorry I can't help more.

 

[Olon]

I'm no expert on shotshell loading, I only assist a friend. Since you are new and said you had trouble with the wads i want to remind you unlike other reloading you must follow the shotshell recipe exactly are written. You have to used the exact components as listed.

You asked about springs, do you ever have trouble with factory ammo? I'm guess in those 209a primers are made by Federal? Are they the primers in the recipe? Sorry I can't help more.

No, I haven't had the issue with factory ammo. It seems like the firing pin makes larger indentations on those primers. According the Hogdon, it would work with Remington or Federal hulls but I didn't think that would be a huge factor. The issue with the wads was that it wouldn't crimp well because the cheddites were too long so I needed some filler. Didn't think that would affect the primer, but I guess if the brass is a different profile that could change things. Measuring the Win primers and the Federal ones, the dimensions are all the same so I don't know what the deal is. Maybe I'll buy a few win primers and see if that changes things. I just don't want to waste all the ones I already bought but I suppose I may find a use for them somewhere down the road. Worst case I could try selling them off to somebody else...

 

[Olon]

I'm no expert on shotshell loading, I only assist a friend. Since you are new and said you had trouble with the wads i want to remind you unlike other reloading you must follow the shotshell recipe exactly are written. You have to used the exact components as listed.

You asked about springs, do you ever have trouble with factory ammo? I'm guess in those 209a primers are made by Federal? Are they the primers in the recipe? Sorry I can't help more.

Here's a screenshot from their site using Remington Hulls:

 

[Blue68f100]

Since you’re not having problems with factory rounds I would make sure your settings the primers till they bottom out. Like metallic hand loading they need to be solid to fire. Normally all you can do is seat them flush, which normally works unless you have a hulls that may have been wet.

 

[Olon]

Since you’re not having problems with factory rounds I would make sure your settings the primers till they bottom out. Like metallic hand loading they need to be solid to fire. Normally all you can do is seat them flush, which normally works unless you have a hulls that may have been wet.

So you're saying I'm just not pressing them in far enough? Like I mentioned, I've got a Load All II so the only primer adjustment I can make is pressing harder on the handle.

 

[243winxb]

So you're saying I'm just not pressing them in far enough?

Seat primers to hard and the case head becomes concave. The primer ends up being farther away from the firing pin. Results=misfires. Seen a guy have this problem using a Mec.12 ga.

Hold a straight edge across the case head of a primed shell to check.

 

[Olon]

Seat primers to hard and the case head becomes concave. The primer ends up being farther away from the firing pin. Results=misfires. Seen a guy have this problem using a Mec.12 ga.

Hold a straight edge across the case head of a primed shell to check.

Ah, that makes sense. I will do that. Thank you.

 

[rsrocket1]

The primers have the anvil built into the housing so it's not like a Boxer rifle or pistol primer that needs the anvil seated into the pocket. My bet is your old gun is not sending the firing pin far enough into the primer. Grab all your loaded shells and put a straight edge across the bottom of the shell. Are any of the bases concave (bending in)? Compare them to factory loads. I have had problems early on in my reloading career with non-Remington primers in Remington hulls because the Remington primers are tapered at the top and the plastic in the primer pocket would resist other brand primers from being fully seated.

Here are some primers I had and their profiles:



The Winchester Super X and Universal hulls are terrible for reloading. The walls are super thin and they don't hold a crimp on a reload very reliably especially when the wad legs are compressed. You don't have to worry about that with your current load because it sounds like you load stack is way too short if you need 3 beans to fill the shot stack to the hull crimp line. You really need a longer wad but if the beans work, stick to it until you use your wads up.

The Fed 209A's are no harder than any other shotshell primer. Yes Federal does have a reputation of having the softest rifle and pistol primers around but the shotshells primers are certainly not harder. They are the hottest primers around which is good for light payload loads because it drives the pressures up for good clean burn.

 

[Crunchy Frog]

Ordinarily I’m a Federal primer fan but my cowboy gunsmith recommended Winchester shotshell primers, saying that the seat in the correct position relative to the firing pin. I use Winchester AA and Remington STS hulls with Winchester primers; they have been 100% reliable in my Model 12, an 1897 and in my SKB double.

I’ve heard that some of the European shotshell primers are a bit larger in diameter than American brands, so that they enlarge the opening in the hull a little so that the hull will no longer hold an American primer in the proper position. I have not tested this myself.

 

[rsrocket1]

I’ve heard that some of the European shotshell primers are a bit larger in diameter than American brands, so that they enlarge the opening in the hull a little so that the hull will no longer hold an American primer in the proper position. I have not tested this myself.

Yes that is correct. I reloaded a bunch of Gun Club Hulls with RIO primers and they are bigger by a few thou so that if you tried to put a US primer into that hull, you'd get blow by and a nice ring of soot on the breech of your gun which can eventually turn into a gas cut ring around your firing pin. The best thing to do is to keep your Euro primer hulls separate from your US primer hulls. RIO and Cheddite primers are copper colored with a red tint so it's easy to see the difference. That's opposed to brass colored which is more yellow.

 

[Dudedog]

Numerich has a schematic of a model 12
https://www.gunpartscorp.com/gun-manufacturer/winchester/shotguns-win/12-win
Firing pin is #36 and it looks like they have the one for 16 guage if it is worn, not real probable but possible I suppose after 77+ years.
(anyway the schematic is neat if you don't have one)
But if factory ammo is ok it is most likely something to do with primer seating/hulls.
Been a while since I have loaded shotgun but I think 243winxb is on the right track, I have some vague recollection of that happening to one of people I used to load and shoot with
when he changed to a different press way back when.
He got it worked out but I don't remember what the answer was..