Lungs and Physiological Stops

[Skribs]

Regarding the physiological (aka involuntary) stop, where the BG simply can't continue no matter how determined s/he is, the oft-quoted (by myself included) standard is that you need to disrupt either the CNS or the heart enough to cause the target to stop. Anything else, under this premise, is periphery to a physiological stop - a hit may cause pain, medical complications, fear, and/or other symptoms associated with blood loss or damage to the particular organ that was hit, but the mantra (again, I'm part of this) has always been "heart or CNS".

However, I've been thinking - how much effect would a hit to the lung or a primary artery (pulminary artery/aorta is almost an extension of the heart, but thinking along the lines of coratid, brachial, femoral etc) have on an attacker? These are two questions, one for lungs, one for major arteries. I am familiar with the basic concepts of pulmonary edema and pneumothorax, in regards to the lungs, but I am not aware of how quickly this will stop an attacker, or even if a single lung failing will stop an attacker.

Assuming the attacker is in "terminator mode" (such a state of mind that he is immune to pain or fear) through drugs, rage, fanatacism, etc., and will not stop unless his body is physically incapable of moving, what would be the effect of damage to the lungs? What would be the effect of damage to a major artery?

Essentially the reason for asking the question is to figure out how much a chest hit on an assailant that doesn't meet the "heart or CNS" mantra will affect an attacker.

 

[Librarian]

Pulmonary edema probably won't act quickly enough.

I've witnessed a patient get 'flash' PE, both lungs (and I was a student nurse, so never did get the 'why did that happen' answer). Patient stayed conscious, agitated, wanted to climb out of bed.

Drowning in their own fluids would slow them down. Getting that much fluid in really fast seems unlikely.

 

[jim243]

Callapsing one lung will not do it. A non-arterial hit will still leave sufficient O2 to the heart to keep the attacker going. Callapsing both lungs would reduce the flow of O2 to the heart and would take approximatly 2 to 3 min for the brain to shutdown most body functions.

A arterial hit would depend on where and how damaged the artery was to give a estimate as to how long it would take to bleed out.

A hit to the spine would immobleize the attacker immeadately disconnecting the CNS is the fastest way to stop an attacker, but might not result in death depending on where on the spine the hit took place.

A shot to the back of the head will be an instant kill disconnecting the brain from the rest of the body, but will get you many years in prison. Frowned on by jurys as not fair play. (or self defense)

Head shots, may or may not kill but in most cases will stop an attacker.

Each case will depend on a lot of factors, including age, physical condition, wond damage to what organs and caliber of the bullet used.

Most shooting victims do not die, case in point the Aurora victims 58 wounded 12 dead. US forces 2011 wounded 5,183 killed 418.

There are too many factors involved to give a good estimate.

If there is a need for this type of action then two to the chest and one to the head, if you can, or just empty the magazine untill the threat has stopped.

Jim

 

[Ragnar Danneskjold]

There's already enough oxygenated blood in the body to allow some movement (such as a final lunge with a knife, or a trigger squeeze) even if the subject is suffering from catastrophic blood loss. So that means even puncturing the heart may not actually stop the attack right now. It will probably increase their chances of dying later drastically, but that's not the point. You want motion to stop right now. Only disrupting the nervous system through brain, brain stem, or spinal damage can do that. Blood loss kills. Nerve damage stops.

 

[scar_47]

Destroying the lungs could take several minutes before the lack of oxygen caused a loss of consciousness, hitting any major blood vessel would lead to the same situation your looking at anywhere from 30 seconds to several minutes before theres enough blood loss to incapacitate, even destroying the heart won't be an instant stop. The only reliable way to immediately stop an attack is a cns hit.

 

[CDW4ME]

Deer shot through both lungs with muzzleloader and centerfire rifle still have voluntary movement, they typically run 30 - 40 yards.

 

[Skribs]

So...best case scenario for a physiological stop:
CNS = virtually instant stop
Heart = several seconds
Major Artery = 30 seconds or more
Lungs = minutes

What about the Aorta (biggest artery) or the Carotid artery (brings the blood to the brain)?

ETA: Thanks for all the responses, especially CDW with the deer anecdote.

 

[X-Rap]

My only practical experience of heart, cns/spine wounds is big game animals but it is pretty extensive and I can say even spine shot wounds will often require a second shot to finish them off. I don't let them languish so I can't say how long but it is plenty long so that if determined and human they could return fire even though their legs were immobile.
As has been stated heart shot animals can cover a lot of ground and are basically bleeding out as they run so again a determined or drugged up human could still be a great threat after a very terminal wound.
IMO it is valid proof that one should "shoot the threat to the ground" and carry a gun with the capacity to accomplish it more than once, maybe three times. How many rounds is that?

 

[Skribs]

A determined human could return fire after a spine hit, but they would have to physically recover from falling over and regain a sight picture.

 

[X-Rap]

True but when you say stop I am guessing that you mean the end of their participation in the fight, I can also say I have seen big game animals take shots near their spine and go down hard but only suffer temporary disability but get back up (post shock) and be very capable of moving and again if they were human could IMO be very dangerous.

We can't equate all comparisons of people to animals but I think those who have spent much time in the field hunting big game may have a more real sense than those who haven't.
I have seen one shot DRT's that didn't have the same results with other animals shot in the same proximity with equal caliber, killing things is not a very exact science and I long ago quit believing there was a magic bullet or a magic place to put it.

 

[Skribs]

True but when you say stop I am guessing that you mean the end of their participation in the fight

I do mean ending their participation in the fight. This gives me a window where they are recovering and I am still in position, much like a hit to the solarplexus in a fistfight.

 

[Shawn Dodson]

Regarding the physiological (aka involuntary) stop, where the BG simply can't continue no matter how determined s/he is, the oft-quoted (by myself included) standard is that you need to disrupt either the CNS or the heart enough to cause the target to stop.

Your bullet needs to: 1) produce physical trauma (damage) to the brain or upper spinal cord, or 2) disrupt the brain's ability to function by starving it of oxygenated blood.

A hit to the heart or a major vessel will take time to have effect. The amount of time it takes to starve the brain of blood depends on the rate and volume of blood loss and an individual's personal tolerance to blood loss.

During the 1986 FBI-Miami shootout, a 9mm bullet fired by FBI agent Dove severed Michael Platt's brachial artery (in his upper arm) and a large vessel in his right lung. Despite these injuries Platt was able to continue fighting and he shot 5 agents afterward, two of them fatally.

In another example of the opposite extreme, in 1992, SC trooper Mark Coates was shot during a traffic stop. The weapon was a .22 mini-revolver. The bullet cut a major artery in his torso. He almost immediately collapsed to the pavement, incapacitated, after being shot. See - http://www.odmp.org/officer/420-trooper-mark-hunter-coates

 

[Skribs]

Good anecdotes. I realized when I asked the question that it wouldn't be a perfect answer, more of what is the human body capable of that we may not realize.

Although it does highlight why, in TV and movies, you can several BG extras just drop from random hits, but the protagonist or antagonist can take several hits and keep trucking. Maybe that part of the movies aren't unrealistic

 

[Balrog]

I have done trauma surgery for a long time.

My opinion is, "titrate to effect". Quit shooting when they quit moving.

 

[Shadow 7D]

I have done trauma surgery for a long time.

My opinion is, "titrate to effect". Quit shooting when they quit moving.

Once again Skribs, fishing.
there is NO answer to the title posed question
sorry, but no matter how many ways you ask it, the answer is the same


It depends.

 

[kingcheese]

While a hit to the lungs might kill someone, more then likly it won't be instant, the human body is said to be able to survive 2-3minutes without oxygen, major arteries will take a few seconds at least to cause a complete shutdown of voluntary movement, then you throw drugs in the mix, a person might be in a state that would incapacitate a normal human, but a stimulant will keep them alive

 

[2DREZQ]

The lungs are pretty elastic. If they weren't you wouldn't be able to breathe. ISo they stretch a little but don't blow up like some of the more solid organs. It's a litle like poking a hole in a soggy sponge. I'm guessing you're envisioning a defensive situation, so probably a handgun bullet is involved. Not a lot of hydrostatic shock damage to be had there. It is impossible to punch a 9mm diameter hole in a human chest without doing critical damage that, if left untreated, will result in a high probability of fatality, eventually. Lung damage adds up. A big hole leads to a pneumothorax (collapsed lung and seriously compromised oxygenation). But if the attacker is feeling no pain...well, keep shooting and keep distance between you. Ask anybody who has arrowed a bear from a treestand if they feel like climbing down right away and blood trailing that Bruin. IMHO, if you've definitely put holes in the bad guys thorax, then time, distance and 911 are your second best friend (right after a fast reload)

BTW, I'm a Respiratory Therapist. Lungs are my bread-and-butter. (they also taste pretty good with barbacue sauce)

 

[Skribs]

Lungs are my bread-and-butter. (they also taste pretty good with barbacue sauce)

Ewwww! Bread, butter, and BBQ sauce? Good information, though.

Shadow, I realize that it depends. However, my question was if you take out the variables involved in a voluntary stop and only look at involuntary stops, what's the best-case scenario for a shot to the lung?

 

[OneLiveRound]

I've always trained failure drills 2 high chest COM (Around C-8, T-1) and then 1 up top. I always visualize the spine as the target so hopefully I can stop the brain from sending signals to the rest of the body. I've read stories of BG's taking 15+ hits COM from .40's and .45's , I'm sure the BG's were dead, but they didn't know it yet and were still returning fire. I wouldn't want to have to rely on them bleeding out.

At the end of the day though, if you get into a gunfight, you're going to be shooting at whatever part of the body you can score hits on.

 

[john wall]

Scope out the "1986 FBI Shoot Out"" in FL. The first shot fired was a lethal wound. He, along with his partner, managed to decimate a trained FBI team before being stopped by a badly wounded agent.

http://www.thegunzone.com/11april86.html