more hunting = less belief in "stopping power"

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I am reminded of a scene in a submarine movie where a prisoner gets a pistol, he shoots one of the crew, who pauses for a moment before rushing the prisoner and taking him out, receiving 5 or 6 more shots in the process.

I can't remember the movie but I think it might have been "U571"?

Either way I think people are right when they say mindset is important. If a bad guy thinks he is supposed to die when you shoot him, and you know that you don't have to die when you get shot, you have a big advantage.
 
Deer don't know they're supposed to die from a gun shot wound.

Neither does a guy on drugs. They teach you this in martial arts classes; never get in a fight with a guy who's high on drugs if there is any conceivable way to get away from it. It doesn't matter how much damage you do in the fight, he can have one foot in the grave and take you down with him.

The U.S. war in the Phillipines that brought about the 1911 in .45ACP is touted as definitive evidence that bigger is better, but in reality it simply proves the concept of your adversary either not knowing or refusing to believe he is dead. The Filipino fighters tied ropes around major arteries in the arms and legs to slow blood loss, and got their adrenaline going through both psychological and chemical means. You could empty your magazine into someone like that and even if you scored a headshot, if your adversary was close enough he could still get in a final stab or slash.

The idea behind the .45ACP was that the larger bullet would transfer more energy and knock the BG back when hit, but unless the bullet stops inside the BG it has not transferred all its energy, and a bullet that stops inside the body has probably not done the maximum possible damage. A larger caliber bullet just makes a bigger hole giving you a better chance of hitting something important. Same deal with a shotgun; it doesn't knock back, it turns Sparky the bad guy's midsection into hamburger. If a bigger bullet had enough impetus to knock back a charging opponent, every precinct in the country would equip their officers with .50AE firearms. Instead, they issue handguns in the .38-.40 range and teach officers to fire quickly and accurately as many times as is called for ("just wing him" is no longer police policy, if it ever was; if an officer pulls the trigger it is with the intention of ending BGs life).
 
There is a school of thought that says shooting the pelvis (and breaking it) is the most effective 1 stop shot (against a human).

The pelvis is structural, so if its broken it doesn't matter how determined, drugged up or full of adrenalin someone is, they're still going to fall down (now if they're armed with a gun they're still a major threat).

The pelvis should also be easier to hit than a bobbing head.

Now that comes back to the "stopping power" question ... do most handgun calibers have enough umph to break a pelvis?
 
JWarren - it sounds like you are getting more instant results on deer than I am. I have had some shots in the past that were not as good as this one - like the last deer I got before this one, it deflated one lung and got the pulmonary artery on that side, plus gouged a channel through the myocardium that opened up the left ventricle. This one though, anatomically, was the best hit I have had. The heart was literally destroyed; all four chambers wide open.

The one difference is that we aren't allowed to hunt with centerfire rifles in Indiana. It looks like that's all you ever hunt with. I wonder if there is some kind of energy or shock effect at rifle velocities that accounts for the difference?

I have always been dubious of energy and shock theories of firearm wounding because the mechanism isn't explained very well. Poking holes in things, destroying tissue, and loss of blood pressure make obvious sense. When people start talking about mysterious energy effects, it isn't clear what exact mechanism they are proposing that actually incapacitates the animal (dinner or assailant).

However, I am open to the possibility that something else is happening.

Tumbling and fragmentation I do not count as "something else" since you are still basically talking about destruction of tissue.

Zunfolge - what you are saying about breaking the pelvis makes sense to me. However it seems that might not be easy to pull off. Where exactly would you aim? Can handgun calibers reliably destroy heavy bone like that? I don't know.
 
Concerning shooting the pelvis, since it is one of the largest single weight-bearing bones, it is very thick in most places, and a pelvic fracture is usually the result of bone disease or a crushing force that would break practically any other bone in the body. The good news for shooters is that it is built like a box, and if its broken in one place it is usually also broken in another.

The most delicate areas are the hip joints; even if you don't out-and-out destroy the weight-bearing capability of the joint, a bullet and/or bone fragments in the hip is debilitatingly painful and the shattered socket can cause the joint to dislocate. To aim for the hip socket, your shot should be placed below the waistband slightly inside the line of the leg. You have a good chance of severing the femoral arteries or the vena cava with such a shot as well. The pubic bone, located lower and more centrally, forms the front of the pelvis and if broken it is virtually impossible to walk, but such a shot would require pinpoint precision with a very high-speed bullet.

It is interesting to note that this area is actually the true COM of a human being, and virtually anywhere you hit in this area will be critically damaging. hip joints, blood vessels in the intestines and going to the legs, the kidneys, reproductive organs (yes I had to say it) and quite a lot of nerve trunks from the lower spine to the leg trunks are all in this area, and a shot here will likely cripple your attacker for life. However, if your attacker is armed, a shot to this area is not debilitating enough to disable him, or even fully immobilize him. A chest shot, though more protected by ribs, will debilitate the BG much faster as the BG finds themself unable to breathe very quickly with a deflated lung, and very difficult to see when they're bleeding out from the heart or pulmonary arteries.
 
My dove hunting has led me to have a very high respect for the stopping power of 7.5 shot. Sometimes just 1 or 2 pellets will knock them clean out of the sky. :D
 
1. The only way to get an immediate "one shot stop" is to take out the central nevous system.
2. Deer (game animals) seem to have a much stronger will to live than humans when hit with a fast moving projectile. Humans tend to crumble.
 
Shouldn't the title of this be

more brains = less belief in "stopping power"

After years of hearing folks hearing folks whine on about "stopping power" in the various service rounds (usually in caliber wars between 45 and 357 SIG, or 10 mm and anything else :) ), I fired a .308 caliber in a bolt action gun. I thought, "Wow! All those handgun rounds are pretty wimpy!"

Then I thought, "And deer keep on running after getting hit by this? Stopping power? Stopping power? Game over."

Mike
 
Talking about movie exaggeration, I actually like the type of exaggeration you see in Sin City by Frank Miller. Unlike a lot of exaggeration I have seen, he stressed taking your time and getting an accurate shot off. While people do fly around in that movie, that's just the way art is, you exaggerate stuff to elicit the feeling you want from the audience. That's why Sin City and 300 are the way that they are.
 
Stopping power?

Back when I had time to hunt I used a bow and arrow. I had to track my kills. My husband hunts with a 69 caliber muzzleloader. He has to track his kills. Now my uncle told of the time he shot a deer with a 45-70 govt. It dropped like a stone. Unfortunately the ball went under the jaw and traveled through the spinal cord ruining the meat.

A few hundred yards of tracking and a full freezer or a dropped animal with no supper. Your call.

Selena
 
If you hit, they will fall...or at least stop attacking you.

After Sargent Alvin York single-handidly went 18/18 with his SMLE (yeah..a British Gun) against 30 German Maxim Machine Guns at 25 yards, 6 Germans sporting Loaded-and-Bayoneted Mausers rushed him from 20 yards when they figured he had run out of ammunition. Alvin "Whipped Out" his 1911 and "Touched them Off": one shot each.

Now...unless the Germans had been taught that they were invincible to anyone but a Tennesee Mountain Man, I believe there might have been some "Stopping Power" involved - along with good shot placement, especially.

Just hit.

NASCAR
 
After Sargent Alvin York single-handidly went 18/18 with his SMLE (yeah..a British Gun)

Don't confuse an M1917 with an SMLE. About the only thing they have in common is the "Enfield" name.
 
Thanks JesseL...you are 100% right!

I assumed that because York wrote in his Diary that he was using a "British Rifle" that this meant the rifle was an SMLE.

NASCAR
 
The CNS is no sure thing either. It's pretty small, really, and even smaller in some animals (and perhaps stupid humans). I can tell you for absolute certain that a hog shot through the forehead with a .22 rifle or a .38 pistol, both of which are sufficient to make a mess of the brain, can keep moving for a couple seconds. I'm not talking about twitching either, I mean bucking and fighting. They're not necessarily going to do any fancy tricks, but they don't die instantly either.

Similarly, I have seen a 4-legged animal with a broken pelvis drag itself a long way until it found cover. Good thing coyote's can't return fire. Humans, mostly, are big wimps compared to our cousins the animals. But it doesn't take much life or effort or time to pull a trigger.
 
Antsi wrote:


JWarren - it sounds like you are getting more instant results on deer than I am.

Yep... but I am knocking on wood. My results are not typical, I know. Furthermore, I can't explain them. I have seen dozens for deer with puctured hearts or lungs run for a good distance with other hunters. I've personally seen a heart/lung shot done by my mother with a 30-06 180 grain run for OVER a MILE.

You just never know what the effects of a lethal shot will be. When I wrote of my experiences, I realize that I am writing of mine only. And I really can't explain mine with anything but luck. If I had used the SAME rifle and the SAME cartridge, maybe something would be there. But I didn't. The only consistency has been me shooting always at shoulder/heart and the typical size of the deer. That is hardly anything I can make generalizations from-- especially since I've had to help track deer with the same wounds.

So, I dunno.

I have had some shots in the past that were not as good as this one - like the last deer I got before this one, it deflated one lung and got the pulmonary artery on that side, plus gouged a channel through the myocardium that opened up the left ventricle. This one though, anatomically, was the best hit I have had. The heart was literally destroyed; all four chambers wide open.


I've seen one with a COMPLETELY destroyed heart run 75 yards. But here is the kicker. The exit wound was large enough to put my dog's head in (we used her to help track, and she literally put her head in the wound) but we NEVER found a blood trail. Again, makes no sense. Usually blood shines brightly when a flashlight hits it.

The one difference is that we aren't allowed to hunt with centerfire rifles in Indiana. It looks like that's all you ever hunt with. I wonder if there is some kind of energy or shock effect at rifle velocities that accounts for the difference?


Yep. I've only used centerfire rifles. There may be something to your thoughts. I'd love to get some guys like Dstorm on here to give us an expert opinion of that.


I didn't mean to take away from others' experience with mine. None of us can anticipate how a shot will go, and we just have to play the hand that we get dealt. I wish I had the luck I have had hunting in a casino.... sigh.


-- John
 
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Officer'sWife said:
Stopping power?

Back when I had time to hunt I used a bow and arrow. I had to track my kills. My husband hunts with a 69 caliber muzzleloader. He has to track his kills. Now my uncle told of the time he shot a deer with a 45-70 govt. It dropped like a stone. Unfortunately the ball went under the jaw and traveled through the spinal cord ruining the meat.

A few hundred yards of tracking and a full freezer or a dropped animal with no supper. Your call.

Selena

Yeah, but that sounds more like an argument for not taking bad shots than for rifles being bad for deer hunting.
 
Yeah, but that sounds more like an argument for not taking bad shots than for rifles being bad for deer hunting.

I have to agree with Sammy. I've never shot a bow/muzzleloader/shotgun at deer, but yet I have 3 freezers full of venison. (where's that "yippie" emoticon anyway?)

-- John
 
Just killed my 76th deer a few days ago. About 26 with a bow, most with a centerfire rifle, one with a .54 round ball, and three with a .44 magnum Smith and Wesson. I have generally been a heart-lung shooter (to save meat) and most deer seem to run 30 to 60 yards before dropping, although some seem to drop more quickly. I shot one this year high through both shoulders because it was near a property line fence. It just dropped instantly.

One of the things about deer is that their immediate reaction to danger/injury is to flee FAST. They can cover a quite a distance in just a second or two. Not so with humans (I don't think), we just seem to stand still and whine. Kind of like the coyotes I have shot. If not immediately killed, they just seem to spin in circles.
 
I made a lucky shot this year. A shot through the spine into the heart (the buck was facing away and on slightly lower ground). He dropped and did not rise again. On examination the cord was severed and the heart completely destroyed. 150gr SPs .308.

No animal, human or otherwise has much fight left with a severed spinal cord. Of course hitting one with anything other than a scoped rifle is the trick.
 
Deer are tougher than men. Handgun shots rarely "stop" the target, a centerfire 270, through 300 win mag, drops a deer in its tracks, if the shot placement is right, and it's a rainy wednesday. "dead before they hit the ground" as my dad-in-law likes to say. I have dropped deer in their tracks with a .50 cal t/c woods rifle with powerbelt 295 grain hollowpoints, and had them run with a clean chest shot with a 7mm . rem. mag. All shot places are differant, and all deer are differant. Shoot them in the boiler room, and hope that they fall.
 
Read somewhere: Someone studied all the videos of shootings he could get his hands on, I think an ABC agency. Anyway, to the point: every GG suddenly finding himself in a gunfight always, ALWAYS, went down on the first hit. The BG, having the advantage of adreniline and mindset, I suppose, never went down immediately, regardless of caliber used by either.

Assuming this is indeed accurate, seems as though mindset plays a major role.
Which brings to mind someone's sig:"They may find me dead in a ditch, but it'll be in a pile of my brass!"

Stay safe, and determined!
Bob
 
In my personal experience with deer, the suprise shot when put in the right place, gives you a pretty quick end. But when stalking or driving deer, when they have their adrenalin up, even when you put the bullet in the right place, you will see them travel a pretty good ways. One doe I got on an either sex hunt ran over 200 yards with NO heart, there was buckets of blood for a trail. She was jumped up by my brother in law while driving a thicket. I have had a handful of deer drop in their tracks from the same shot.
 
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