M1 Carbine caliber change
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SilentScream
Member
Good luck with that....
Will that be able to use the same bolt or magazine?
Case diameters and rim diameters are probably too different as well as the OAL being considerably different. If they were closer I would imagine that a new chambered barrel could be mounted to work, but I think there are too many difference not to redesign the bolt and chamber.
Case diameters and rim diameters are probably too different as well as the OAL being considerably different. If they were closer I would imagine that a new chambered barrel could be mounted to work, but I think there are too many difference not to redesign the bolt and chamber.
LeonCarr
Member
Sounds like a cool concept, but won't be cheap.
New barrel, modified bolt, modified gas system, modified magazines, etc etc.
All for a cartridge that provides no increase in performance over the original chambering.
IME the best cartridge for the M1 Carbine is the .30 Carbine.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
New barrel, modified bolt, modified gas system, modified magazines, etc etc.
All for a cartridge that provides no increase in performance over the original chambering.
IME the best cartridge for the M1 Carbine is the .30 Carbine.
Just my .02,
LeonCarr
rcmodel
Member in memoriam
This, exactly.
The .30 carbine will push a 110 grain bullet right at 2,000 FPS.
The .38 Super would have a hard time matching it with a 115 grain bullet.
Case capacity is less, and it will not hold the heavier charges of slower burning powder necessary to get top velocity out of a carbine length barrel.
Then there is the matter of the larger chamber not leaving a whole lot of meat in the barrel shank threads.
Plus the shorter OAL, and larger semi-rimmed case head that won't fit the bolt face, or magazine..
Or stack well in a high-cap magazine.
I imagine it can be done though, if you just got too have it.
And have lots of money to pay for the work.
But you would still end up with less gun then the stock .30 Carbine was to start with.
rc
Scooter22
Member
Sell the .30 M1 as is and get a Ruger Mini 30 in 7.62x39. Same style rifle/action but double the power at 100yds. Plus ammo is cheaper. Win/win situation.
Iver Johnson made a clone in 9x19. Might be parts out there (Numrich?) as well. Might be an easier starting place to convert to 38S. One of the Ruger Police Carbines would be a similar looking equivalent.
Otherwise you are back to the old mathematical equation of:
$600 gun + $600 gunsmithing cost = $400 curiosity
Otherwise you are back to the old mathematical equation of:
$600 gun + $600 gunsmithing cost = $400 curiosity
Jim Watson
Member
This is one of those jobs that you probably cannot find anybody to take on.
It would involve a lot of special setup and a gunsmith would assume that you would not be willing to pay for a lot of fiddling around.
It would be an advanced amateur DIY if you had the equipment and knowhow.
There were a lot of weird Carbine derivatives back in the 1960s when the NRA/DCM was selling them for $20.
If you want to pursue it, FIRST poke some .38 Super cartridges into a Carbine magazine and see if they go in, stay in, and present themselves at an angle that looks like they might feed toward the chamber.
It would involve a lot of special setup and a gunsmith would assume that you would not be willing to pay for a lot of fiddling around.
It would be an advanced amateur DIY if you had the equipment and knowhow.
There were a lot of weird Carbine derivatives back in the 1960s when the NRA/DCM was selling them for $20.
If you want to pursue it, FIRST poke some .38 Super cartridges into a Carbine magazine and see if they go in, stay in, and present themselves at an angle that looks like they might feed toward the chamber.
Autoloaders are precisely engineered to manage feed and flow of cartridges in and out of the chamber automatically. Changing one parameter such as the caliber cause all sorts of issues--e.g. springs, loading ramp, extraction, bolt impulse speed, etc. To fix all of these issues and to have a reliable gun requires time which you are paying for at expert rates if you have a gunsmith even willing to take on the project.
I have no idea whether you are an experienced hobbyist, precision machinist, tool and die maker, etc. and able to take on the job yourself.
Nevertheless, please consider the following as totally unsolicited advice. To get some idea of what is involved, I would suggest getting the Shotgun New's Gunsmithing Projects book or reading Reid Coffeld's or Steve Matthews' columns on project guns in the Shotgun News (which is where the Projects book comes from). Reid or Steve might have done some weird oddball cartridge conversion of the M1 in the past. However, the current value of a M1 Military carbine, even in parts, makes such a project costly as well as the extensive modifications needed will make such parts and altered rifle worthless for most other purposes. Unless you can make your own barrels to spec, it will probably be inaccurate as well. Reading Reid's and Steve's gunsmithing columns will give you some appreciation of the difficulty in what you are proposing. You might shoot them a letter to determine if it has been done and if it is even possible at a reasonable cost. Even converting a worn out military bolt action to fire .22LR in single shot is an extensive modification (which is why I read Shotgun News and bought this book in the first place).
I apologize if you are a mechanical genius with an extensively equipped shop or if you have the money and access to it. I tend to rescue dogs and cats as well as butchered mil-surps in LGS. It takes a lot more time and expense to restore what was lost than to have altered it in the first place.
If you are going to do this, I would suggest getting one of the Plainfield/Iver Johnson/even Auto Ordinance carbines to experiment with. Remember, a military M1 Carbine will only go up in value quite a bit over time (even as parts) while some of the commercialized derivatives will not.
I have no idea whether you are an experienced hobbyist, precision machinist, tool and die maker, etc. and able to take on the job yourself.
Nevertheless, please consider the following as totally unsolicited advice. To get some idea of what is involved, I would suggest getting the Shotgun New's Gunsmithing Projects book or reading Reid Coffeld's or Steve Matthews' columns on project guns in the Shotgun News (which is where the Projects book comes from). Reid or Steve might have done some weird oddball cartridge conversion of the M1 in the past. However, the current value of a M1 Military carbine, even in parts, makes such a project costly as well as the extensive modifications needed will make such parts and altered rifle worthless for most other purposes. Unless you can make your own barrels to spec, it will probably be inaccurate as well. Reading Reid's and Steve's gunsmithing columns will give you some appreciation of the difficulty in what you are proposing. You might shoot them a letter to determine if it has been done and if it is even possible at a reasonable cost. Even converting a worn out military bolt action to fire .22LR in single shot is an extensive modification (which is why I read Shotgun News and bought this book in the first place).
I apologize if you are a mechanical genius with an extensively equipped shop or if you have the money and access to it. I tend to rescue dogs and cats as well as butchered mil-surps in LGS. It takes a lot more time and expense to restore what was lost than to have altered it in the first place.
If you are going to do this, I would suggest getting one of the Plainfield/Iver Johnson/even Auto Ordinance carbines to experiment with. Remember, a military M1 Carbine will only go up in value quite a bit over time (even as parts) while some of the commercialized derivatives will not.
Carl N. Brown
Member
one caliber change I have thought about for M1 Carbine
In the 1960s I thought seriously about getting the .22 Spitfire version of the carbine. Based on .30 carbine necked down to 5.56mm. Promoted by the legendary Melvin M. Johnson (WWI Johnson rifle and Johnson light machinegun used by USMC in WWII) as a survival weapon.
I noticed a few months ago that the LGS had special ordered some .22 Spitfire ammo, so there are a few around in use yet.
The charm of the .22 Spitfire conversion is that it is basically swap out the barrel but, if I read the published instructions correctly, then you must headspace the barrel for .22 Spitfire by final reaming of the chamber to fit headspace with the existing bolt.
ADDED: I agree with post #9. Even a poor conditiion original carbine is an orginal WWII collectible, but most post-war commercial carbines are used rifles.
In the 1960s I thought seriously about getting the .22 Spitfire version of the carbine. Based on .30 carbine necked down to 5.56mm. Promoted by the legendary Melvin M. Johnson (WWI Johnson rifle and Johnson light machinegun used by USMC in WWII) as a survival weapon.
I noticed a few months ago that the LGS had special ordered some .22 Spitfire ammo, so there are a few around in use yet.
The charm of the .22 Spitfire conversion is that it is basically swap out the barrel but, if I read the published instructions correctly, then you must headspace the barrel for .22 Spitfire by final reaming of the chamber to fit headspace with the existing bolt.
ADDED: I agree with post #9. Even a poor conditiion original carbine is an orginal WWII collectible, but most post-war commercial carbines are used rifles.
carbine85
Member
The Spitfire is the only practical wildcat for the M1 Carbine.
greyling22
Member
just buy an m1 in 9mm.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/11/13/citadel-m1-carbine-9mm-additional-information/
now, I wonder if you could rework an m1 into 300aac..... subs would certainly be too long for the mag, but maybe the 120's? and factory ammo would be out as pressures would be way too high, but with a custom load perhaps.....
why bother? readily available and convertible brass.
http://www.thefirearmblog.com/blog/2013/11/13/citadel-m1-carbine-9mm-additional-information/
now, I wonder if you could rework an m1 into 300aac..... subs would certainly be too long for the mag, but maybe the 120's? and factory ammo would be out as pressures would be way too high, but with a custom load perhaps.....
why bother? readily available and convertible brass.
Jim Watson
Member
I know of one Carbine converted to .221 Fireball; but the owner had to handload blunt bullets to short OAL to fit the magazine. Factory loads with spitzers were too long.
.300 BOO would have worse problems.
A new barrel with 8 twist and chambered for .30 Mini-Whisper might could be made to work.
(Mini Whisper is 7.62x25 loaded with rifle bullets up to 168 gr SMK.)
.300 BOO would have worse problems.
A new barrel with 8 twist and chambered for .30 Mini-Whisper might could be made to work.
(Mini Whisper is 7.62x25 loaded with rifle bullets up to 168 gr SMK.)
LAGS
Member
A friend had a M-1 in 256 Winchester Magnum and a Ruger Pistol in the same caliber.
I think the rifle was a Universal Carbine called the Ferret.
I think the rifle was a Universal Carbine called the Ferret.
Jim Watson
Member
Yes, but it had purpose made magazines for the rimmed rounds. Five shot at most, I recall.
I agree that the 5.7 spitfire is the best conversion for a M1 carbine. If you are just wanting to go with a .355 pistol round have you thought about the 9x23? More capacity than the 9 luger and the tapered rimless case would make things easier.
Jim Watson
Member
9x29 Winchester Magnum (Wildey) would be worth a look... if actually available.
amd6547
Member
Or...learn to love the 30 Carbine.
The carbine and it's round are almost perfectly suited to each other.
And, to those who suggest "get a Mini 14..."
I've owned a Mini 14. They don't handle anything like an M1 carbine. The little M1 is lighter and handle much better. It has a lively feel I have not felt in any other long arm. The Winchester 94/92 are the only other rifles that come close in that lively feel.
The carbine and it's round are almost perfectly suited to each other.
And, to those who suggest "get a Mini 14..."
I've owned a Mini 14. They don't handle anything like an M1 carbine. The little M1 is lighter and handle much better. It has a lively feel I have not felt in any other long arm. The Winchester 94/92 are the only other rifles that come close in that lively feel.
25cschaefer
Member
P.O. Ackley used to convert them to 357 Mag, l'm not sure how they held up but 38 super wouldn't be harder to do than that.
Peter M. Eick
Member
Would you still have enough gas pressure to operate the mechanism with a 357 Magnum? Obviously the answer is yes if PO did it, but I wonder what else he did to make it all work out.
I have several M1 carbines and have no problem with the calibers. I have several in the original 30 and one in .22 Johnson spitfire. I have found that custom carbines in .357mag and .45WMag have been done in the past. Just looking to convert a commercial to match one of my colts for S&G. The same as thinking about converting a Md.92 to .45acp. Seen that done as well.
Yes I like something different.
Cheers,
ts
Yes I like something different.
Cheers,
ts
Maj Dad
Member
Brass
If you decided to go with the 22 Spitfire and don't intend to buy loaded ammo (if you could find it), reloading it is a labor of love. The cases are easily crushed, some have to be reamed, and they rarely last more than two firings (in my experience). When carbine brass was plentiful it wasn't a big deal, but things have changed... I went back to the good old 30 caliber.
If you decided to go with the 22 Spitfire and don't intend to buy loaded ammo (if you could find it), reloading it is a labor of love. The cases are easily crushed, some have to be reamed, and they rarely last more than two firings (in my experience). When carbine brass was plentiful it wasn't a big deal, but things have changed... I went back to the good old 30 caliber.
Converting an M1 carbine to 357 Mag would present many challenges, but I don't think insufficient pressure would be one of them. A 357 Mag load produces plenty of pressure.
Modifying the bolt, the mag and getting it to feed, now those would be challenges.
Why the caliber change? .38 Super, while a fine round is less powerful than .30 Carbine. It is easier to reload, and make the proper ammo for the gun, rather than change the gun to fit certain ammo. However, if you just want to do it to do it then have fun, and let us know how it works out.
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