M1 Garand .308 Question

[cslinger]

When a Garand is converted to .308 by say DGR are we just talking about a different barrel and some kind of spacer in the magazine?

What kind of limitations on ammunition that can be shot are there. Bullet weight, powder type etc. I would assume the same problems would exist in the .308 version.

Thanks
Chris

 

[dude]

while I don't know who DGR is

all you need is a good gunsmith, a $244 barrel from Brownells and a spacer. There is no need real operational need for the spacer as .308 rounds do not creep with serviceable clips and if you were to load a .06 round(s) it would not chamber/bolt would not close.

I set up mine for NATO ammo with ocassional commerical hunting stuff. This is done by expanding the gas port and a spring swap if required. Once tuned a steady diet of commerical ammo would not be healthy for the op-rod

 

[AZ Jeff]

If you go over to the "Gun Talk" forums (www.jouster.com), you will find that DGR has a reputation for very good work.

An M1 converted to .308 normally is only a new barrel, and, if you desire, a magazine spacer to prevent loading .30/06 rounds into the mag well. (This feature is a good safety idea, more than a functional requirement.

Otherwise, a .308 Garand uses the same recoil spring, same gas cylinder, oper. rod, etc.

Mine seems to recoil slightly less than my .30/06 guns, and is a fine performer in ALL aspects.

 

[DMK]

DGR (AKA Dean's Gun Restorations): http://www.dgrguns.com/

I just sent my baby to him today for a .308 conversion and complete rebuild.

Dean will swap in your barrel or you can get a parkerized one from him and have him install it for around $375 (I might be wrong on the price though, email him).


These guys here will swap in a blued barrel for you for $210:
www.champchoice.com

DOUGLAS M1-GARAND .308, 4 GROOVE, 1/10 BARREL

The M1-Garand Douglas Premium Grade replacement barrel, .308 Cal. 4 Groove, 1/10 Twist. Medium weight. Requires minor modification to rear hand guard. ($20.00 charge for us to do this modification.) Fitted and headspaced to your receiver. (Please send receiver, bolt, operating rod and gas cylinder.) (Old barrel will be returned.)

It seems that the strength of the Oprod is the main limiting factor for ammo in the Garand. You want to keep around the same weight (150gr.) and velocity(about 2600fps?) as milsurp for either caliber.

 

[Swampy]

cslinger,

Pretty much covered by now but I'll weigh in...

Barrel change is all that's necessary for a .308 Garand.....

The Champions Choice deal is the BEST going... $220 for a new Douglas, INSTALLED and headspaced. Old barrel returned. Note that while this barrel is blued, not parkerized, they will parkerize it before installing if you ask them to.... for a small fee.

The same 'smith who does all of CC's shop work built my Match Grade M1 for me early in '02. His name is Ronnie Morris of Match Service Works in Madison TN. Good work, very decent prices, and good turnaround time.

This rifle was built with the same Douglas .308 that CC sells.... Great rifle. Shoots like a laser.

Re ammo issues with an M1.... The op-rod is the weak link in the Garand. The Gas Port pressure must be kept within the gas systems designed in paramaters..... i.e. that of USGI M2 ball spec ammo. To do this you must keep all ammo within the following rules:

1) NEVER shoot bullets heavier than 180 grains.
2) NEVER shoot powders SLOWER than IMR-4320

Most milsurp 30-06 and .308 ammo meets these requirements easily.... After all, they were produced with the M1 and M14 rifles in mind.

Most commercial hunting ammo DOES NOT meet these requirements.

Most commercial hunting ammo is designed for longer barreled turnbolt rifles and are loaded with powders that are WAAY too slow for the m1's gas system, giving a port pressure that will cause op-rod damage if used. In extreme cases, the rear of the receiver heel can be battered by an over accellerated bolt and crack..... bye-bye receiver.

To my knowledge the only currently produced commercial ammo that is safe for the M1 (either '06 or .308) is the Federal American Eagle fmj rounds with a 150 grain bullet.

Personally, I don't shoot ANY commercial hunting loads in my m1's. If I want to hunt I reload and stay with the proper powders and bullets.

DMK wrote:

It seems that the strength of the Oprod is the main limiting factor for ammo in the Garand. You want to keep around the same weight (150gr.) and velocity(about 2600fps?) as milsurp for either caliber

You are of course right about the op-rod and bullet weight.... but beware that muzzle velocity of any particular load IS NOT an indicator of how safe it might be for the M1.

The determining factor for this is the time-pressure curve of the powder being used, NOT the actual velocity of the bullet as it exits the muzzle. It is easily possible to load ammo with slower burning powders that have a much LOWER muzzle velocity than GI M2 ball, yet have a PORT PRESSURE that is WAAY over the limit for the M1's gas system.

Unfortunately, there is no way to know with commercial hunting ammo what powders they are loaded with since commercial loaders don't use cannister grade powders (as us handloaders do)..... they use bulk lots of powders that are only available to commercial ammo loaders. These bulk powders vary considerably from lot to lot in burn rate. The loaders simply vary the charge weight to match the published velocity of the load they are currently making.

The upshot of this..... A hunting load that MIGHT be safe in your Garand today (and there are darn few of them I'd even consider for this description), might NOT be safe the next time you buy a box of the same load.... cuz' it's loaded with a much slower powder.

Just my opinion, ymmv......

Best regards,
Swampy

Garands forever

 

[Kestrel]

Swampy,

Thanks for all the great info. It's been a big help.

Steve

 

[Jaywalker]

Swampy, how accurate is "like a laser?"

Jaywalker

 

[twoblink]

My M1A is like a laser..

CSlinger, get a 308 and then get a Mauser in 308. Trust me, you'll appreciate the fact that you can bring two guns and only carry one ammo..

After playing with a garand for a while out to about 400-500 yards, you won't want to play with AR15's anymore..

I don't know about now, but I use to be able to tag a 24x18" steel plate @ 400yards with my M1A iron sights.. A garand should do the same with no problems.

 

[Swampy]

jaywalker wrote:

Swampy, how accurate is "like a laser?"

A lot more accurate than I am....

I prefer the M1 to all other rifles, for both shorty matches and X-Course.

Bought the M1-A first. Great rifle.
Bought the AR15 next.... also great.

Then bought my first M1. BABY, where you BEEN all my life....

Had an IHC from the CMP built up to Match Grade standards early in '02 (using the Douglas .308 bbl.). Since then I've only fired the AR in about 3-4 matches.... the M1-A not at all.

I normally shoot high up in the Expert range with the M1. My best X-Course score to date is a 748-15X (shy of Master class by 4 points). The rifle is MUCH better than this. The only thing keeping me from reaching Master with it is my own lack of consistency at Standing and in keeping the groups centered in the rapids (also a decided lack of ability to read wind at 600, but we won't go there. I only get to shoot X-course 3-4 times a year anyway).

I have shot a 191-8X at 600 on a decently calm day, and in 100 yds "shortys" I shoot anywhere between 194 & 199 on the MR-31.

Eight & 10 shot groups at 100 range anywhere from 1-5/8 to 1-1/4 inches.

The rifle is capable for sure. It's the "nut holding the butt" that causes all the wide spacing between the holes.

You can see the rifle and a few of the initial short course targets at:

Swampy's Stuff Page

Best to all,
Swampy

Garands forever

 

[DMK]

beware that muzzle velocity of any particular load IS NOT an indicator of how safe it might be for the M1.

Very true Swampy. Thanks for the correction. I should have put more thought into it before posting that.

 

[Jaywalker]

Swampy, thanks. That's better accuracy than I can hold consistently, too. I refer to that limiting factor as the "trigger actuator."

Jaywalker

 

[twoblink]

Jay..

I have to say.. it does suck however when you cannot blame the gun for lack of accuracy.. and realize it's you who is not accurate enough..

I was more accurate than my SKS (minute of Pie plate on a good day) but nowhere near the capabilities of my M1A..

My friend's part of the "long range M1A shooters club of San Francisco".. I think there's only 5 members..

But "warmup" is 500 yards with iron sights.. They go 1000 yards on iron sights!!

So when I tell them I start shooting only about 70% @ 500 yards, they tell me keep working at it..

I like shooting steel plates though, audible response..

 

[standingbear]

i believe sarco had the 308 conversion kits awhile back for 150 bucks.i think the barrel was a half inch shorter at the chamber and the handguard also a half inch shorter,everything else the same.sarco included the shorter barrel,shorter handguard and io believe an op rod and spring-vg cond.i had a tanker copy done with the kit.worked fine.the smith loved it so much he had to have it for himself as sarco was sold out of those kits after that..he got my redone tanker.i got a fal.

 

[Jmurman]

swampy

Your site with the pics of yuour CMP IH Garand is great! That is one BEAUTIFUL rifle. If you dont mind, what did it cost to "do it all"?

 

[Swampy]

jmurman,

A basic breakdown is as follows:

CMP M1 $500
Douglas barrel $210
New gas cylinder $75
New NM sights $125
New Wenig wood $175
Shop work (bedding, stock finishing, front end work, install & headspace barrel, fit & install rear sight, parkerizing all metal, etc.... ) $400

Total, about $1500

Me happy.....

Swampy

 

[Gearhead Jim]

Swampy described very well the issue of muzzle velocity vs port pressure. One way to get an approximation of port pressure; is to fire several rounds of known-acceptable ammo and then measure the average ejection distance. Due to variations in rim dimensions, brass hardness, etc you can not exactly compare ammo loaded in different brands of cases, but this method can keep you away from the extremes.