M1 Garand Forend Hand Stop??

[cosmic11do2]

Howdy Gang,
I'm a pretty small guy and for years I've just put up with trying to keep my left hand in place on the forend of my garand. Of course in the manual of fire they show these guys with a 1:1 ape index that can reach the swivel and still have a bent elbow. If I slide my hand to the swivel and shoulder the stock the muzzle is in the dirt and my arm is straight!

I know in .22 match stuff I can use a sliding sling swivel or a hand stop in the inlaid track and actually get my arm to relax. Is there any such aftermarket device for the M1? If so, is it legal in 80 shot Garand matches?

Any info or suggestions appreciated as I'm girding my loins to try some high power again after lo those many years.

TIA,
Alan D.

 

[Random 8]

Don't know if they make a purpose built one, but spare stocks can be had easily and relatively cheaply, and a homemade or purpose built one could be added. No, it is not legal for the JCG program or service rifle, although many of these matches are relatively informal so you could probably sneak by. Would be S.O.L. at Perry.

 

[cfullgraf]

If you decide to modify a hand guard, get a metal set kit for it. It will make it easier to swap between a stock hand guard and the modified one.

 

[Dave DeLaurant]

As your base stock, I can recommend this offer: https://www.sarcoinc.com/m1-garand-stock-only-wood-only/

These are brand new Italian made stocks, originally cut short for 308 conversions and then blocked back to full-length -- mine was nicely finished and a drop-in fit.

 

[CapnMac]

You can get resin for your glove. Which will make the stock sticky with use. The leather sling will pick it up, too. Which then become a tactile reminders of where "locked in" is.

You are committing to having a competition finish, rather than a collection-level finish on the arm. But, that has a charisma of its own, too.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

If I were paid to do this for a customer, I would approach it like a bipod - which is to say that - I would approach it like a sling swivel.

First, if yours is *collectible*, I would purchase another stock.

Then, I would best determine the location by shooting with a rag/kerchief tied around the stock holding a wad of something like a dressing.

Once I had determined the general location for the rearward dimension, I'd locate a hole about 1 1/2 inches forward and inlet the inside of the stock for a predetermined female hardware.

In the end, I'd set it up for a *Parker-Hale* style bipod using the mounting palm-stop as your "forehand stop".

Having done this several times customers' on M-14 wood and fiberglass stocks - it seems pretty effective to me.

If you go with the bipod option, get the shortest contracting legs as possible since it will be quite rearward mounted compared to its original intent.

Good versions can also act as a relocated sling-swivel should that appeal to you as well.

Todd.

 

[kBob]

well one of the Army manuals had images of guys that had tied white engineer's tape around the stock closer to the shooter than the front sling swivel to do just what you suggest as an aid to Duck Butts.

-kBob

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

well one of the Army manuals had images of guys that had tied white engineer's tape around the stock closer to the shooter than the front sling swivel to do just what you suggest as an aid to Duck Butts.

-kBob

Our thing was "100-mile-an-hour tape" (duct tape) and field dressings.

Some of our M-21s and M-24s looked like field-medic exercises.

Add in rattle-can camo and they looked like they'd been picked up having been discarded in the Horn of Africa. Looks fine with a ghillie suit but leaning against a wall out of context? A combination of comical and tragic.

Todd.

 

[cosmic11do2]

So many thanks to all for the suggestions. "Duck Butts" Haw!! good one. This is probably collectable so agreed that any real mods would require a replacement stock ( thanks for the Italian link) or at least the forward parts. I did consider the spray resin till I saw a guy that had done that. What a mess. Every time he set it down it picked up something, dirt, sticks, gravel, and his mitt was a thing of beauty <BG>. I like the hand stop you show with the bipod but that might be a bit more mod than I want to do and still shoot in garand matches. Sure wouldn't pass muster at Perry, right? Or as an old boss used to say "Pass Mustard". Ewwwww. Not that I'll be shooting there at this remove. Another thought I had was to make some sort of thin metal piece that would be held against the wood by the sling swivel anchor. Then slip on the other end a hand stop that could be easily put on or removed. This is mostly a prone position issue.

Again, thanks to all with the good suggestions and thoughts. Typical great THR response! I'll have to ponder a bit. If I settle on something I'll post it back up here.

Laters and be well,
Alan D.

 

[Random 8]

Second on the Sarco stock. I replaced the sloppy, oversized old beech one on my CMP gun several years ago. Was a beautiful, dark!, dense piece of european walnut. Fantastic shooting stock, drop in fit, I did give it a couple touches with a needle file for match fit. Put a lot of rounds with the rifle set up as-such and won some matches until the throat wear got too severe to hold 10s. I should add, your hand stop will not be legal for CMP courses of fire, but would be legal for NRA high power. If you're going to go that route, you can do other things also. Adjustable gas port, glass bedding, shaping of wooden parts. These minus the hand stop ARE legal for CMP high power, just not the Garand Specific matches. For this route, one of the Greek CMP beech stocks would be perfect. They are significantly oversized in terms of inletting and exterior dimensions leaving plenty of room to add bedding/remove wood as needed. I sold my old one to a guy who wanted to do exactly that...build a match tricked Garand.

 

[30Cal]

I use spray glue for Service Rifle but I dunno if that flies for JCG matches under a strict interpretation of the CMP rules.

 

[garandsrus]

A hand stop is not normally used with a Garand. When using a tight sling in prone, your hand on the stock really can’t move much. It is pressed pretty tightly to the stock by the upward pressure on the sling, under your glove/mitt. I use a mitt which looks something like an oven mitt with the fingers cut out. It is thick so the sling pressure isn’t uncomfortable and my pulse doesn’t affect the rifle. With the mitt, I don’t really hold the rifle at all in prone with my support hand. The sling and glove do. I can’t wrap my fingers around the rifle because of the mitt.

My mitt is similar to this: http://www.champchoice.com/store/Main.aspx?p=ItemDetailOptions&item=CC600L

Here is a video of a couple guys shooting a Garand match. If you look at their hand position, it is several inches behind the swivel:

Make sure you are setting your sling up properly!

 

[AlexanderA]

I would agree with the use of the sling as a sort of hand stop. It seems that would be the easiest solution by far.

 

[cosmic11do2]

Thanks again for the additional suggestions. I have not yet looked through the video, still downloading, but will do so. You would think that the sling would be the stop but remember my short arms. The sling is being the hypotenuse so when I get my palm with mitt, I too use the Champion Choice albeit much earlier version in all leather, in what I think is the proper position for aiming the sling actually pulls my hand towards the sling swivel decreasing the angle in my elbow and tipping the muzzle down.

After thinking about this I realize that maybe I'm doing the engineer thing and overthinking it. I realize that if I just put a wrap of double stick tape just in front of where the op-rod goes into the wood and then add on top one or two big black Zip Ties and that should do it. the tape would protect the original wood and also keep the ties in place. The tie end bump should be on the bottom and will give an extra knot to rest the mitt against. If I get a complaint at a match I can easily just snip them off. Another simple thing is self-stick sandpaper. Just run a strip of 80 grit down the bottom of the wood to get the equivalent of the spray rosin. Again, easily removable if needed. Further, after looking at the newer Champion mitt with the sticky rubber in the palm, maybe time to upgrade my older all leather mitt.

Again, thanks to all that offered their knowledge and time,
Alan D.

 

[hps1]

Thanks again for the additional suggestions. I have not yet looked through the video, still downloading, but will do so. You would think that the sling would be the stop but remember my short arms. The sling is being the hypotenuse so when I get my palm with mitt, I too use the Champion Choice albeit much earlier version in all leather, in what I think is the proper position for aiming the sling actually pulls my hand towards the sling swivel decreasing the angle in my elbow and tipping the muzzle down.

After thinking about this I realize that maybe I'm doing the engineer thing and overthinking it. I realize that if I just put a wrap of double stick tape just in front of where the op-rod goes into the wood and then add on top one or two big black Zip Ties and that should do it. the tape would protect the original wood and also keep the ties in place. The tie end bump should be on the bottom and will give an extra knot to rest the mitt against. If I get a complaint at a match I can easily just snip them off. Another simple thing is self-stick sandpaper. Just run a strip of 80 grit down the bottom of the wood to get the equivalent of the spray rosin. Again, easily removable if needed. Further, after looking at the newer Champion mitt with the sticky rubber in the palm, maybe time to upgrade my older all leather mitt.

Again, thanks to all that offered their knowledge and time,
Alan D.

It's been 30 years since I shot service rifle, but had same problem. This works and if cleaned off after each outing, no damage to stock finish. Regularly shot 3 day matches and cleaned off after the 3rd day just fine. Your hand will not slip on this surface.

https://www.creedmoorsports.com/product/GRIPCOMBO/shop-by-department

Regards,
hps

 

[garandsrus]

Where are you putting the sling on your arm? It sounds like you have it fairly low, near your elbow. Put it up as close to your shoulder as you can. Try to tighten it against your arm so it doesn't slide down. Your hand/glove will interfere with the straight line of the sling from your shoulder to the swivel and compress your hand against the stock.

 

[cosmic11do2]

Nice to see the Creedmore spray has a remover. I just might try that. On the sling, I have tried the usual garand sling method and also a cuff system well up almost into the armpit but below the pulse point a bit. I am now using a hardback coat and can use the shoulder clip to keep the sling up w/o having to cinch it down so tight. In theory it should work but I end up having to clench my bicep to keep the hand in place. Need to get a photo of that somehow.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

You mentioned "80 shot Garand match." That's either Service Rifle Across The Course, or John C. Garand match.

For service rifle, you won't be allowed to to install a hand stop. In JCG, the rile must be entirely "as-issued" configuration. Bear in mind also that, according to the rules, the sling is part of the rifle; it must be installed for every course of fire. I expect that a hand stop would interfere with the tight, parade, sling in the Standing/Off-hand position. (In 10M Air Rifle, and I suspect in the 22LR divisions/3-position, etc., the sling actually attaches o the hand stop.)

I've also never seen anyone put adhesive spray on anything. I'd be surprised if that were legal. Then again, I shoot smaller, local matches, and haven't seen everything.

I would offer the same advice as others: review how you wear the sling and revise. I suspect you have room for improvement there.

PS: If Audie Murphy could do it, so can you.

 

[cosmic11do2]

Thanks DB. Good one with Audie Murphy! I'm probably no smaller than he was but then again I don't have to storm up the hill with a full on machingun in hand <BG>. I'll rethink and practice practice practice...

 

[hps1]

PS: If Audie Murphy could do it, so can you.

It's been close to 30 years since I shot NRA XTC service rifle competition but it was common practice to use "stickum" (Creedmore spray adhesive) in those matches. In fact, I swear, some of the fellows never cleaned off the residue and it was built up enough that you didn't dare approach their rifles closer than 6' or it would reach out and grab ya. I think that was the first version of "social distancing".

Never shot a DCM (CMP) match, but was our club's DCM instructor and ran monthly NRA approved matches that were then required to qualify to purchase M1's from the DCM and stickum was not prohibited by NRA. Can't comment on CMP current rules, however.

Regards,
hps

 

[entropy]

Set up your M1907 sling properly and you shouldn't have an issue, as garandsrus says.

 

[d2wing]

A solution that would not require any change to your rifle would be to make a loop with a hook that you can hook to the trigger guard or elsewhere the other end around your wrist or sleeve. or a short cord with hooks on both ends.

 

[cosmic11do2]

I agree that "in theory" I should be able to adjust the sling to work. In the past regardless of how I did that, wearing a simple canvas shooting coat, I was not able to get satisfaction. I need to do some experimentation with the new hardback coat with hook and see if that might now be true. Waiting for the most recent foot of snow to melt so I can get to the range but will do dry fire experiments in the basement. d2wing, I did also think of some sort of tension line as you suggested. I am however hesitant to do anything involving the trigger guard or anything near the trigger. That seemed like asking for trouble in a tangle while standing-to-prone or standing-to-sitting type actions.

Again, thanks to everyone for al the thoughts and suggestions!!
Alan D.

 

[D.B. Cooper]

Thanks DB. Good one with Audie Murphy! I'm probably no smaller than he was but then again I don't have to storm up the hill with a full on machingun in hand <BG>. I'll rethink and practice practice practice...

Getting your shooting positions right, for your and your body, takes a lot of practice and muscle memory. You're putting your body into unusual positions and you're holding it there using muscles you don't normally use.

Additionally, the Garand is a lot more "work" than the AR-15. Heavier, longer, pushes you around more. (Probably why I see so few of them on the line these days.) I first started shooting High Power and Service Rifle (It was DCM back then.) when I was about 20-21 years old. I was 5-8 and about 120 lbs. (I wish I could get back to THAT!!! LOL) It beat me up a lot. Even then, the M1 was in rapid decline (as was the M1A). But I enjoy it and continue to compete with it.

 

[garandsrus]

Stickum is fine for Garand matches. It’s more commonly sprayed on the glove/mit than the rifle. You will sometimes see it on the shooting mat where your elbow goes to help maintain position.

You will not be able to attach the sling to your coat with a hook for Garand matches. During offhand, the sling is attached to both the sling keepers and isn’t used, but has to be attached. During prone and sitting, the sling is detached from the rear keeper and attached to your arm and the front keeper.

I agree that it is a lot more work to shoot a Garand than an AR. I also think it’s more fun. The AR is easier to shoot, cheaper to shoot, and more accurate and consistent than the Garand though so that’s what I shoot in most matches.