m1a accuracy

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greyling22

greyling22

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So, first off, this is a not a flame thread, it is a serious question.

I have 2 buddies with springfield m1a's that have not been shot much. under 500 rounds each. 1st guy has it stock with a springfield gen 3 12x scope and a springfield scope mount, and off a sandbags, at 85yds, with 3 different guys and 5 different ammo's (all big name brand boxes from walmart), it groups about 7" with some tendency for vertical or diagonal stringing.

buddy #2 has one with the archangel stock, millet buck gold 16x scope, and arms mount. He was just shooting some random ball ammo in unbranded white boxes he found at a guns show. 3 shooters, avg groups about 5" at 85yds using a bipod on the front and a sandbag at the rear. No stringing, just not grouping very tight.


so my question is this: Are we doing something wrong? Do m1a's require a fair bit of tweaking to get to shoot? I was under the impression that m1a's were pretty accurate. I'm not seeing it thus far. This is the kind of accuracy I would expect from an sks firing cheap russian ammo.

About the only think I knew to check was to see if the trigger groups were tight, and they were. The guy with the first one has been struggling with it for years. I swapped the scope for him at one point and it persisted, so I thought maybe it was the mount. But then the 2nd guy started off with poor accuracy as well. 1 gun I thought might have been a fluke or something rubbing, but 2 guns has got me thinking maybe I am missing something.
 
bedding

trigger

ammo

shooter

The scope might be loose. Remove it and just shoot irons. I personally would lose the Archangel stock and replace it with a good synthetic m-14 stock.

Shoot from a padded rest with rear bag.

Try Federal match ammo to establish baseline accuracy. Even with GI ball ammo you should get at least 2-3 inch five-shot groups.

If nothing improves, send it back to Springfield or find a good, qualified 'smith who knows how to make M1As shoot (not all of them do).

Good luck

M
 
First off, what weight of bullets are you using? M1A's seem to like bullets in the 165~168 grain range (as do all my .30-06 chambered rifles.) Second, are the scope mounts tight? While it could be a case of one rifle having a bad barrel, I don't see how it can be both of them.

I have a Winchester pre-64 Model 70 that shoots patterns with 150 grain bullets and 1" groups with 165 grain boattails.

I have had four M1A's throughout the years and the very worst of them, a Norinco, would consistently shoot a 3" group at 100 yards with iron sights. The best would shoot 1 1/2" at the same 100 yard targets.

Quite honestly, if it is not a ammo problem, I would suspect that they aren't bedded properly. Like all rifles the fit of the action to the stock will make all the difference in the world.

The only other problem that it could be is operator error.
 
My Scout Squad M1A1 shoots better than that through the irons.
With the Burris Scout scope I think I can get around 2" groups but it has been over a year since I have shot it.
I think if you are expecting sub MOA you need to put quite a bit more into it than just an off the rack stock gun.
 
I forgot to mention this thought highpower brought it up:

I have a Leupold VX-R Patrol with La Rue rings...and I had to take my rifle into a gunsmith, and ask him to torque the rings to a specific poundage setting.

Good rings, good optics, and a quality installation are one of the first steps towards an accurate rifle. Make sure you address this before you start looking at other issues with the rifle.
 
I can't speak for others but my M1A was a gift from my wife about 20 years ago. It is a SA NM version in a walnut stock. Aside from some trigger work it is stock with a NM barrel and NM sights (Open Sights).

The only factory ammunition I get 1 MOA with is the Federal Gold Medal Match which uses the Sierra 168 Grain Match King bullets. Worst case is about 1,5 MOA and that is always attributed to me not the rifle. That is with the rifle on the bench with a Wichita Rifle Rest and bunny bag for the stock.

I get the same accuracy with my hand loads using the same bullets and IMR 4895 powder or IMR 4064.

Even today with my vision not what it was 10 years ago the rifle consistently delivers, the fact that the groups have grown a little is more me than the rifle.

The groups you mention are awfully large. Especially on a rifle with a well mounted scope. My guess is something is wrong but haven't a clue what? Unless over the past 15 years or so those rifles have taken a heck of a downturn in manufacturing.

Ron
 
that is horrible accuracy for those M1As. I have one now and have owned 6 and they always shot 1 1/2 without any bedding. I have never heard of them shooting like that. are your friends joking with you?
 
I also have a Springfield Armory National Match M1A. I haven't shot it for awhile but as I remember, with a scope it will do about 1.5 to 2.5 inches for 5 shot groups at 100 yards with handloads off the bench using IMR 4064 and 168 grain match bullets.

One thing about scopes; the way a scope mounts on an M1A, it's easy for it to become loose or not tight in the first place so make sure it's nice and tight.

I got an M1A because I thought it would shoot better than a Remington 742 I had but it has not been the case. The best 5 shot 100 yard group I got with the Remington 742 measured 0.55 inches center to center. Of course the Remington 742 had a problem with the bolt rails not being very durable so I'm not suggesting it's a better gun but it was more accurate than the M1A.
 
I'm in the market for a good AR-10, I'm hoping that they are a little better in the accuracy department.
I recently got rid of the Springfield version of the G3, it was no tack driver either, can't bring myself to part with the Scout just yet but if the AR shoots as well as it's little brothers the Scout goes as well.
 
To get right down to your question, it is possible that you are doing smthing wrong, and the good news is that there is a way to find out.

1. Consistency = accuracy. IOT find out if your 2 M1A rifles in question are the problems here, simply bench the rifles, and take as much possible shooter errors out of the equation.

2. Use the same lots of ammunition you ran the first time through the same rifles, and under the same weather conditions as your initial shoot...... too include the same magazines used initially.

3. No need to "adjust" any mounts or optics as of yet, unless you need to to get um all hitting on paper at the same distance as you were shooting them te first time.

Are they grouping any better at this point? If they are, then you have established that shooter error was the most probable cause.



With that being said, it may not be the only cause, but it at least you know where your at now, and before you start looking into other variables of the rifles themselves.

Here is the order I would look at in terms of your equipment.

1. Scope mounts: The most likely culprit to look at, and also one of the easier things to remedy.

I use/ have used the 2 types of mounts your M1A's are sporting.

SAI scopemounts: No luck with them at all. (Gen 1 to 3). everything from shooting loose, thus loss of zero, even with locktite....which I avoid using for personal reasons.

ARMS mounts : Excellent mounts that are rock solid and well built, but for use on it's intended rifle...... IE, the M14 Service Rifle. SAI receivers may or may not be "in spec" when it comes to the area on said receivers in terms of proper allignment for mounting the ARMS 18 mount.
The above possible might be the same eason as why the SAI mounts are possibly having issues as well.

Easy solution: Sadlak Industries sells a "measure kit", that you can pick up to find out if your specific M1A receivers are gtg or not.

The other end pertains with consistent cheek weld whilst snuggled up behind your rifle. Is it gtg, or are you getting more of a chin weld instead?

Easy solution: A lace on/velcro cheek piece to raise the comb to whatever hiegth you require.



Another easy solution = iron sights, as this type of rifle sports the best imo.

Below link is something that every M1A owner should know in regards to thier rifle's iron sights.....

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FIKnTPeZbKQ



Other simple things to look at revolve around how the stocks are fitting to the rifles to include thier respective handguards.

FWIW...... I have seen a few factory M1A rifles that were not properly sitting in thier respective factory stock, as well as handguards that were touching the stock, and "crammed" into the receiver.

I have an M1A-A1 that initially suffered from the above as it left the factory, but it still produced much tighter groups than what you are reporting from yours.


As for the Arcangel stock...... I have only messed around with one, but this one did require some work in oeder to get it to fit properly.

"My" easy fix is to smply use USGI synthetic or wood stocks with either GI or Fulton Armory handguards. They are fairly consistent, and I dont mind the work involved in fitting them to a specific rifle as/if required

With that being said, I dont thin that this is the sole cause of your dilema either.

Last: Trigger mods, shimming the gas cylinder..etc...... might help you, but again....the difference in "help' wont in and of themselves change a 7 in group into a 1 inch group....from my experience.

Note: Another easy solution is to contact SAI, and tell them your dilema. ( I'm not sure how they will feel about the Arcangel stock, but they have been known to properly mount an ARMS 18 to a specific receiver.... so it wouldnt hurt to ask....).. as if your problems turn out to be bigger ones, then they can deal with it under the rifle's lifetime warranty.

An example of an bigger problem would be a bbl that has had it's crown damaged by improper use of a metal cleaning rod.

Good luck with your rifles, and hope this helps you some.
 
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I have experience with m1a rifles. 1st rifle: ditch the Springfield scope mount and get a Bassett low mount, and a decent scope. Follow the directions for mounting the Bassett.
2nd rifle: put it in a Fulton armory walnut stock with usgi stock liner and again switch to a Bassett mount, shoot good ammo. Problem solved. Don't rest the barrel on stuff when shooting. Rest the rifle on its stock forearm. The barrel should be free and clear.
 
Fragout offered a lot of good advice and dvdcrr followed it up with even more.
I can honestly say I have never seen anything in a Springfield M1A even close to a a 7 inch 100 5 shot group.
 
To follow up with what dvdcrr said ...........

The Bassett mount is another good mount, and very simple to utilze. I have 2 of thier mounts, and the same mounts work well off of various receivers I have tried them on. (SAI, LRB, Norinco, Fed Ord, and the M14 Service)


Would also add not to rest the rifle on it's gas cylinder either.

not much hands on with the Fulton wood stocks, but it would not suprise me that they are good quality, as thier handguards are well made.
 
X-Rap said:
I'm in the market for a good AR-10, I'm hoping that they are a little better in the accuracy department.
I recently got rid of the Springfield version of the G3, it was no tack driver either, can't bring myself to part with the Scout just yet but if the AR shoots as well as it's little brothers the Scout goes as well.
Click to expand...
Having both (Armalite AR10T) and my SA NM M1A it's about a toss up on any given day. My only 308 that shoots better is an older Remington 700 that I built up and it is scoped. Beats the heck out of me. The bummer is if I had to choose the M1A or the AR10T I would be hard pressed to choose.

Ron
 
The big difference to me is the AR is purpose built for trouble free optics applications, cheaper mags (PMags are under $20) and compatability with many parts on my other AR's.
I don't follow Camp Perry and other competitions but I can't help but believe that the M1A/M14 is begining to loose some ground to the AR-10's.
If there was a counterpart to the M1A in 5.56/223 I'd probably have one of those and my choice would be tougher.
 
I would think that the closest 5.56mm counterpart to the M1A/M14 would be the Ruger mini14........ but niether shares in parts with one another.

The biggest problem I have ran into with the M14/M1A is that they are addictive. What started out as a simple emergency spare parts kit for 1 rifle....turned into a rifle of it's own.

I cant look at a "spare" trigger group next to a "spare" op-rod......and NOT eyeball it as a "spare" rifle........lol

Examples of 2 "easy to do" ways to mount optics over the receiver.......

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hHSMm6qcc9c

http://www.lrbarms.com/m14m25actions.html
Note: Scroll down till you get to thier M25 receiver
 
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Before the 2nd m1a showed up I was all set to blame the springfield mount as the problem. I still think it's bad. Especially since we can see the irons under it, and I had the owner (15yr army guy) shoot it at 50. groups tightened up to maybe 2.5" off a sandbag. And with the poor stock for a tall scope his head was floating. I had already pointed him to a strap on cheek rest and a new mount. MY research actually had the arms mount pretty high up on the list.

Then m1 #2 showed up with a good mount and a stock that fixed the floating head issue and I had fairly high hopes. I was able to shoot about a 3" group, but the other 2 guys were larger. Maybe it was the ammo. If I can find some 308, I'll try a few different bullet weights. Maybe that is all he really needs to tighten up to par. Every thing seems good and tight on his gun.

I'm sure the issues can be resolved, but I guess I was just really expecting more out of the platform. I'm not really an AR fan, and liked the garand and the m1 carbine, but the m1 just isn't impressing me thus far. And come to think about it, it's distant cousin, the mini-14 isn't really known for accuracy either.
 
Having problems attempting to load a pic, butif I can get it to load here, the pic shows an angle of an ARMS 18 mount properly fitted to a receiver.

( Every time I try to load it here, it tells me that I have loaded it on another thread)

Any ideas on how I can load the pic on this thread?
 
tell your friends to ditch the scope along with the stupid mounts and have someone who is good fire it with the iron sites. that gun was not really made to be scoped they are heavy enough
 
At one time......
I just HAD to get an M1A......

Threads like this led me to the AR15 (6.8)

Easily under 1 moa


If I go 308, it wil probably be the new M&P 10
 
I think I figured the pic thing out.

Below are two pics of an ARMS 18 mount.

The first pic illustrates how the mount should mate up with the receiver itself.

The second pic is a top view of the mount as it relates to same receiver.

Note: The receiver in both pics is not an SAI M1A receiver, but a Norinco M14S receiver.

It should look this way on either/any receiver type however.

Note: Click on the pic to make it bigger, and you willget a better look at it close up.

Note: I'm not a professional photographer, but this should give you an idea.
 
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