MAC .380: Is it a crush or true love?

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cpileri

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I have suddenly become enamored of the small caliber full auto handgun.
Oh, would I love a VZ61 Skorpion in 32ACP! But alas, she is far beyond my reach…
Knowing a FA (in general) is financially out of the question right now, I am still gathering info about sami-auto versions of smg-look-alike, small caliber semi-auto’s with long magazines hanging out; and I realized I know next to nothing about the MAC series of guns.

Please tell me like I am a kindergartener, OK?

Of the 380 MACs,
What is the difference between the PM12 (semi-) vs M12 (semi-) vs the M11 (semi-auto)?
There is also a M11 in 9mm, are the parts interchangeable (except the obvious barrel, bolt face, etc) btw the M11 in 380 and 9mm?
What is any parts are interchangeable between any of the models or calibers?

I hear bad things about the accuracy of the MACS, but mixed things about the reliability? How’s the reliability of the 380’s?

Seems like there are both legal open bolt and closed bolt semi-autos. But the open-bolt semi’s must have been manufactured prior to the mg ban and thus are ‘grandfathered’ in to being legal in that configuration. Good luck to me finding one for sale, right? Would it be legal for me to buy it in any case without going the NFA route? Otherwise, I am looking at closed-bolt semi’s only, right?

On the Cobray sight, they have a magazine that will work, they write: “ IN SWD M11/9 OR SWD M11/380 A1 SMG "This Mag Will NOT Work in a M12/380 , M11/380 RPB or Powder Springs SMGâ€. So what is the difference between the SWD M11/380 AI SMG, and the M11 or M12 in 380 by RPB or Powder springs?

I am sure your kind answers will only cause me to have more questions.
Thanks,
C-

p.s please, if the main theme of your post is "MACs suck" please state some cogent and rreasoned opinions as to why, rather than leaving the sentiment/statement to stand alone.
 
Can't speak to the MAC at all, but it would seem to me that a 9mm (9X19) would be more economical, at least from a feeding standpoint. 9mm is cheap and plentiful, whereas .380 is a lot pricier.

Unless you're also a reloader.
 
sure

but the reason I am focusing on the 380 is it seems it would be much more controllable in FA.
I know a guy can learn to control anything, but the 380 is where my interest lies.
C-
 
Please tell me like I am a kindergartener, OK?
Click to expand...
OK - Colin - you are a kindergartener! :neener:

I cannot speak for .380 at all but a buddy in OH has a 10 - with 9mm and 45 upper - plus he has added a can too. Not by far the easiest tool to control but - certainly when I shot it 9mm - it was more than useful - three to four round bursts tho are the best.

I'd expect even with .380 (had never even thought of that either) - muzzle climb would still be an issue.

Oh for a lottery win!
 
On the basis of very limited experience shooting other peoples' guns - -

- - and NONE of it shooting the semi-auto-only version. Yes sir, I understand the main point of your post is semi-only, but the below MAY be of some limited use.

The M11 .380 is a very small, rather specialized SMG with an extremely high cyclic rate. Dependant on the ammo used and condition of the recoil springs, we're probably talking around 1,000 rounds per minute. With the suppressor in place giving a decent forward place to hang on, and a good deal of practice, it is controlable, if you don't mind about three to five bursts per magazine. If you're not ready for it and haven't had a bit of practice, it runs dry really fast!

Without suppressor or "barrel extension," you need a death grip on the little web strap, or a powerful Weaver grip. It is NOT a gun to shoot with a tender hold, and as for one-hand shooting? Forget it! other than at bad breath range, or for sprayed "suppresive fire," but as to any accuracy, no. Shooting the M11 .380 on semi setting, and using the shoulder stock, I could shoot groups on the order of six inches at 50 feet (not yards.) One may call head shots at 20 ft with little difficulty, and reliable hits on a silhouette target at maybe 60 feet. All in all, accuracy somewhat less than with a decent conventional style .380 pistol. Again, my experience is with the open bolt model. Closed bolt? I dunno -- Probably conducive to better accuracy.

Magazines are a major factor. Few of the plastic magazines work reliably. They're subject to self-unloading if kept loaded, and a lot of malfunctions appear to spring ( :rolleyes: ) from early cartridge release. Proper metal magazines that run well - I believe they were made by Walther -- are pretty expensive, compared to the plastic mags.

It's really back to the purpose intended for the weapon system. Legend has it, the original intent was to provide a easily concealed, fairly lightweight, high-volume-of-fire piece, in limited issue to special ops teams. Kick in the door, take out the main bad guy with little risk of collateral damage, and disappear - - Okay. (Remember, there were a lot fewer assassination teams ever in action than are discussed.)

Bodyguard use? I don't think so. An Uzi, MP5, Sterling, even an M10 .45 would be superior for intimidation and accuracy, if not quite as concealable. If THAT's not an issue, see above, or go directly to an M4. If I were the protectee, I'd prefer my guys to be well trained with more conventional bodyguard weapons, NOT indiscriminately spraying a buncha bullets, and then trying to reload an empty piece. :uhoh:

Carl, I'm really NOT trying to burst your bubble. Unusual firearms are fun, and really, they are their own justification. I don't think it's "kindergarten" to want to play with something different. (Heck, I spend a lot of time handloading ammo for a Thompson . . . .)

Okay-- I've spent a lot of bandwidth to give a not-on-point answer. ;)
Best,
Johnny
 
Seems like there are both legal open bolt and closed bolt semi-autos. But the open-bolt semi’s must have been manufactured prior to the mg ban and thus are ‘grandfathered’ in to being legal in that configuration. Good luck to me finding one for sale, right? Would it be legal for me to buy it in any case without going the NFA route? Otherwise, I am looking at closed-bolt semi’s only, right?
Click to expand...

The government put an end to open bolt semis in 81 or 82. AFAIK, the grandfathered open-bolts are Title I.

Useless info: The only known crime involving a Form 4 MG was a .380 ACP M11.
 
Well, in the NFA world it is generally said that a Machine Gun Owner's two happiest days are when he buy a Mac and when he sells it.

My advice is to buy an Uzi. True, they are more than double the price, but if you get a Mac11 and do any amount of shooting, you'll spend the difference in ammo in less than a year. The Uzi is a far superior gun, and will give you more enjoyment.
 
Well, in the NFA world it is generally said that a Machine Gun Owner's two happiest days are when he buy a Mac and when he sells it.

My advice is to buy an Uzi. True, they are more than double the price, but if you get a Mac11 and do any amount of shooting, you'll spend the difference in ammo in less than a year. The Uzi is a far superior gun, and will give you more enjoyment.
Click to expand...

Keep in mind, he's asking about the semi-auto MAC, not the NFA one.
 
Finding an actual open bolt .380 MAC 11 semi is at least as hard as finding a transferrable auto.

Interesting little pistol, not much larger than a full size 1911, little recoil.

The full auto MAC 10 in .45 was more fun to play with. :evil:

Since you probably have budgetary concerns you might see if a couple extra capacity magazines for your pistol of choice fill your need.

Or you could find out if there are any local ranges that have subguns for rent and get it out of your system that way. ;)
 
I'm not a MG kinda guy, but the M-11 was a pile of fun to shoot. Only thing more fun was a Mexican Trejo .22 full auto pistol. Out of all the full auto impound guns I got to shoot it was the most fun. Go figure....
 
The semi-auto MACs/Cobrays are oversized inaccurate pistols. If you want something to spray and have fun, but still have quality, buy a Glock 17 and a few 33 round mags, or a CZ75 SPO1 with the 19 round mags. If cost is the factor, then go for the MAC, as the cheaper still Tec 9 and such are even worse....
 
Get something else, ANYTHING else, I've been trying to find parts for a .380 closed bolt mac for a long long long long time and nothing turns up. Apparenty they get broke alot. Mags are freakishly rare, and nothing interchanges with the big brother m11/9mm. Its an odd ball, if it worked reliably it would be kinda neat to have a fist full of whoop. but the metalurgy is lacking in the hammer and firing pin, and the internals wear out prety quick.

just my 2 cents.

on a positive note you can buy one for about 200-300 so its a cheap mistake to make.
 
I have a SWD M11/9mm SMG. Its probably one of the few still affordable full autos out there, but they are going up.

The MAC's are not hard to shoot well with in full auto. The 9mm isnt bad either, and control isnt an issue once you learn the technique. You can easily shoot it without the suppressor or and extension, but I would chuck the silly strap. A good Weaver type stance and grip are all you need, along with the stock out. If your want to shoot down aircraft and flying critters, or blast holes in the indoor range's ceiling, shoot one without the stock out. :)

The fun part is, you can dump a 30 round mag in about 1.5 seconds, and you can also keep every round COM on an IPSC target at ten yards with little trouble.

If you really want a full auto, look around, the M11's are around and available.
Just dont tell your wife I told you so, I already have friends wives who hate me for getting them hooked. :D
 
After having a Powder Springs MAc 11 380 with matching can, a semi-auto MAC11 380 is like kissing your sister.

My son wanted one to match my MG. I got one at an auction for him. After he shot 1 mag he said sell it. He was not impressed at all. The full-auto is a whole nother animal!
 
If you are talking semi-auto version - forget-about-it. Not worth your money. Spend your money elsewhere - or just save it for an NFA!

If you are talking NFA - Nothing wrong with the MACs - they are the most affordable MG out there today. There are lots of accessories for them now. New uppers that improve accuracy, decrease ROF, etc. Parts are cheap and readily available.

I would go with the 9mm - ammo is cheaper and ammo is the big expense! I usually eat at least $60 a session of 9's.

Drums are a problem too. Used to be you could get them. They were expensive when you could find them. But everyone has stopped making them recently.

Mags are cheap. You can get the Sten mags (32 rounds) - 9mm we are talking about here only- and with a bit of grinding make them work perfectly. They run <$20 each. But they only hold 32 rounds.

Yep an Uzi or MP5 is better, but for us guys that just don't have that kind of scratch a Mac is the only entry into the NFA world.
 
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