Madison Quote & European history - putting nails in an anti's-coffin

[wacki]

I'm particularly fond of this question as it is the first one that seems to get under the skin of a liberal anti-RKBA friend of mine who sided with the dissent. So I would appreciate any help you can give. There is a chance I might convert him!

Madison, the father of the Bill of Rights, said this:

The Constitution preserves the advantage of being armed which Americans
possess over the people of almost every other nation where the governments
are afraid to trust the people with arms.

If you are to believe the 4 left wing dissenting justices in the recent oh so narrow SCOTUS case like the mainstream media tells you to then the following would have to be true:

There was a total ban of arms in Europe.

Why? Because if arms were a privilege in Europe then they would have to be a right in America in order for Madison's quote to be true. Remember, according to Madison:

America >>>>>> Almost all of Europe on freedom with arms.

This is a very simple and somewhat scientific test:

Rights >>>>> Privilege >>>>>> Total Ban

The 4 dissenting judges (and the mainstream media) have a problem:

• The English Bill of Rights preserves the RKBA
• Switzerland Est. 1291

Now, what I'm interested in is how common arms were in the rest of the European countries at the time of the Bill of Rights:
http://www.euratlas.com/time2.htm

Thanks in advance.

 

[Samuel Adams]

Actually, Madison was considered the "Father of the Constitution". He didn't see a need for a Bill of Rights. The Anti-Federalists proved him wrong.

Here are a few of my favorite quotes on the subject.

"The rights of conscience, of bearing arms, of changing the government, are declared to be inherent in the people." -- Fisher Ames, of Massachusetts: Letter to F.R. Minoe, June 12, 1789

"Laws that forbid the carrying of arms. . . disarm only those who are neither inclined nor determined to commit crimes. . . Such laws make things worse for the assaulted and better for the assailants; they serve rather to encourage than to prevent homicides, for an unarmed man may be attacked with greater confidence than an armed man." -- Jefferson's "Commonplace Book," 1774-1776, quoting from On Crimes and Punishment, by criminologist Cesare Beccaria, 1764

"[W]hen the resolution of enslaving America was formed in Great Britain, the British Parliament was advised by an artful man, who was governor of Pennsylvania, to disarm the people; that it was the best and most effectual way to enslave them; but that they should not do it openly, but weaken them, and let them sink gradually.. . . I ask, who are the militia? They consist now of the whole people, except a few public officers." -- George Mason, of Virginia: Virginia's U.S. Constitution ratification convention, 1788

"A militia when properly formed are in fact the people themselves . . . and include all men capable of bearing arms. . . To preserve liberty it is essential that the whole body of people always possess arms... The mind that aims at a select militia, must be influenced by a truly anti-republican principle." -- Richard Henry Lee, of Virginia: Additional Letters From The Federal Farmer, 1788

"[A]rms discourage and keep the invader and plunderer in awe, and preserve order in the world as well as property. . . Horrid mischief would ensue were the law-abiding deprived of the use of them." -- Thomas Paine, of Pennsylvania: Thoughts On Defensive War, 1775

"Who are the militia? Are they not ourselves? Congress have no power to disarm the militia. Their swords and every other terrible implement of the soldier, are the birthright of an American . . . . The unlimited power of the sword is not in the hands of either the federal or state governments, but, where I trust in God it will ever remain, in the hands of the people." -- The Pennsylvania Gazette, Feb. 20, 1788

"What is the militia? It is the whole people. to disarm the people is the best and most effectual way to enslave them." – George Mason

 

[mnrivrat]

History of gun control in Europe is not all that easily found or decifered . I am almost reluctant to bring this up again as I have applied this information on a couple threads already this past week, but !

For some history, as well as a great history lesson on the 2nd amendment one should read ,and give reference to the study done by the senate judiciary committee of the 97th congress in 1982. It gives a lot of information regarding their conclusion of the 2nd amendment being an individual right. There is some history of the British gun rights presented in this document.

This study is likely the most complete and comprehensive one done by a creditable source. with more research power than most others can bring to bear . Heck, even Ted Kennedy and Joe Biden were members of the committee that generated this report. (hard for anti's to claim bias with them being part of the studys committee) Look for the thread I posted on 2nd amendment senate report - there is a link to the report posted on the second posting - read it and see how well it applies to what your trying to accomplish - I think you will find it helpful.

 

[JKimball]

I like the bigger version of the Madison quote even better:

“Extravagant as the supposition is, let it however be made. Let a regular army, fully equal to the resources of the country, be formed; and let it be entirely at the devotion of the federal government; still it would not be going too far to say, that the State governments, with the people on their side, would be able to repel the danger. The highest number to which, according to the best computation, a standing army can be carried in any country, does not exceed one hundredth part of the whole number of souls; or one twenty-fifth part of the number able to bear arms. This proportion would not yield, in the United States, an army of more than twenty-five or thirty thousand men. To these would be opposed a militia amounting to near half a million of citizens with arms in their hands, officered by men chosen from among themselves, fighting for their common liberties, and united and conducted by governments possessing their affections and confidence. It may well be doubted, whether a militia thus circumstanced could ever be conquered by such a proportion of regular troops. Those who are best acquainted with the last successful resistance of this country against the British arms, will be most inclined to deny the possibility of it. Besides the advantage of being armed, which the Americans possess over the people of almost every other nation, the existence of subordinate governments, to which the people are attached, and by which the militia officers are appointed, forms a barrier against the enterprises of ambition, more insurmountable than any which a simple government of any form can admit of. Notwithstanding the military establishments in the several kingdoms of Europe, which are carried as far as the public resources will bear, the governments are afraid to trust the people with arms. And it is not certain, that with this aid alone they would not be able to shake off their yokes. But were the people to possess the additional advantages of local governments chosen by themselves, who could collect the national will and direct the national force, and of officers appointed out of the militia, by these governments, and attached both to them and to the militia, it may be affirmed with the greatest assurance, that the throne of every tyranny in Europe would be speedily overturned in spite of the legions which surround it.” ---James Madison,The Federalist Papers, No. 46.

Although the English Bill of Rights had a provision for RKBA, I believe England also passed some game laws that basically made it so that only people who owned a lot of land were able to own firearms. Sorry I don't have a reference for you on that.

 

[Cannonball888]

Madison, the father of the Bill of Rights

Madison is the father of the Constitution. Jefferson wrote the Bill of Rights.

 

[JKimball]

Jefferson wrote the Bill of Rights.

Jefferson was a supporter of the Bill of Rights, but Madison is considered the author.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/United_States_Bill_of_Rights

 

[Rachen]

The Magna Carta may have preserved the RKBA, but it failed to keep the current British administration from removing their dirty hands from the English peoples' right to keep and bear arms.

When you look at it this way, it becomes really frightening. The same thing can happen with OUR OWN gun rights, unless we always maintain the efforts to keep them protected and preserved.

 

[Cannonball888]

Jefferson was a supporter of the Bill of Rights, but Madison is considered the author

.
I stand corrected. However Jefferson wasn't just a mere supporter, it was actually his idea. He insisted to Madison that he include a Bill of Rights. Without Jefferson Madison would never have drafted them.


"I do not like... the omission of a bill of rights providing clearly and without the aid of sophisms for freedom of religion, freedom of the press, protection against standing armies, restriction against monopolies, the eternal and unremitting force of the habeas corpus laws, and trials by jury in all matters of fact triable by the laws of the land and not by the law of nations." --Thomas Jefferson to James Madison, 1787. ME 6:387

 

[JohnMc]

The OP's question regarding which countries banned arms is interesting.

If I recall correctly, the Japanese Meiji government banned sword ownership in the 19th century, to put a stop to the samurai. I don't know who could have guns.

Also, the English Bill of Rights only applied to the "right" people, from the wiki page: "freedom [for Protestants] to have arms for their defence, suitable to their class status and as allowed by law." That'd go over well in the US for any right, yes?

Jews weren't allowed guns in most European states around then either, again, if I recall correctly.

There's got to be more.

 

[JKimball]

Jefferson wasn't just a mere supporter, it was actually his idea.

Yeah, I'm not trying to discount Jefferson's contributions at all. But if I was going to give the credit to one man for having the idea to create the Bill of Rights, it would be George Mason. He even refused to support the original constitution because it lacked a bill of rights. The Bill of Rights that Madison authored was based in part on the Virginia Bill of Rights that Mason had authored.

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/George_Mason