Mag springs - where is the wear?

What causes more wear on Mag Springs

  • Leaving Mags loaded

    Votes: 5 8.8%
  • Continually loading/unloading mags

    Votes: 43 75.4%
  • I have no idea

    Votes: 9 15.8%

  • Total voters
    57
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DontShootMe

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1. Mag springs lose their 'spring' when stored while fully loaded

2. Mag springs lose their 'spring' when continually loaded and unloaded

---------------

The owner of my local gunshop swears by option #2

I've heard plenty of folks tell others - "tight mags? leave 'em loaded for a few weeks - that'll soften em up"

Now if #2 is true, the advice people should be giving to those with very tight mags is "shoot like heck - they'll soften up"

Your vote will decide. Discuss?
 
CYLCLES wear out springs, not steady states of load unless the load exceeds the springs capacity.
 
Many (most?) modern double column mag springs are compressed to a state of being coil-bound when the mag is fully loaded.

I believe that leaving a spring compressed to the point of being coil-bound will wear it out faster than cycling it (if the cycling never over compresses it).

If it is not over-compressed (coil-bound) then leaving it in a compressed state won't have much effect.

I also have a feeling (based on my experience and others) that even if you don't leave a spring in an over-compressed state for very long, you still shorten its service life by over-compressing it.
 
John is right, over compressing a spring ONE TIME is too much. ONE time damages the spring and it should be replaced.
 
Thing is with mag springs .. if they are well designed and fit the mag properly ... over compression is hard to achieve .... because the spring will ''coil-lock'' .. it cannot go beyond that..... and mag springs should be able to go there - shortish term anyways ... with no deleterious effects.

Sustained compression at max is, IMO, eventually weakening in effect ... but by how much? Not enough to matter very often probably.

Cycling .... within a spring's design limits does not ... again IMO ... have any adverse effect at all.

I reckon the ''happiest'' spring is the ''relaxed'' spring!:p
 
From use...or movement and over compression. The only two things that will wear a spring out. Whether is fully loaded and compressed or just hanging out it wont weaken, it doesnt know the difference..as long as its not moving.

Shoot well........
 
Usually the follower projects enough that you can't overcompress a spring in a properly designed magtm , imho. Most of the worn out springs have been caused by guys going into business selling aftermarket springs, also imho. :evil:
 
Springs

All springs eventually take a "set", and springs are produced with
this set in mind. It's compensated for. Once that set has taken, the
spring would have to be under full compression for a long time to
add to that set. Decades, in fact. A few years ago, I was involved with a
1911 pistol that had been cocked and locked with a full magazine for
over 60 years. The magazine was left loaded and the hammer cocked
during inspection, and when I fired it a few minutes later, it worked
perfectly.

The weakening effect is caused by using the spring...cycling it.
Leaving it compressed for long periods will have SOME weakening
effect due to the set, but not enough to make a difference in function.

Letting a spring completely relax for a few days from time to time will
reverse a little of the set, and rejuvenate it some...It will "unset"
a little, but not to the original specs, and not enough to see a difference
in its function.

Cheers all!

Tuner
 
Thing is with mag springs .. if they are well designed and fit the mag properly ... over compression is hard to achieve .... because the spring will ''coil-lock'' .. it cannot go beyond that.....
It is my understanding that, in general, coil-lock is considered overcompression. That may seem a bit silly to say since many mags are clearly designed to operate in the coil-locked state when fully loaded, but in terms of spring life, it's technically correct as far as I can determine. I know of other systems which are designed to coil lock the springs, and while you get the maximum performance out of a given size spring for awhile, you pay for it with shortened life span.

I have seen this borne out in a test where two magazines that were underloaded by two lasted much longer (many more cycles of loading and shooting empty) than two identical magazines which were fully loaded each time and shot empty. I can't remember which gun rag did the test. They weren't actually testing magazines, they were doing a torture test on a pistol--about 10K rounds IIRC. About a third of the way through the test, both of the magazines they were using started to fail (stopped locking the slide back on empty).

They replaced the magazines and completed the test but underloaded the magazines by two for the rest of the time. They were still working at the end of the test after having had twice as many rounds through them (more than twice as many compression cycles) as the first two magazines.)
 
Short -Loaded Mags

I have seen this borne out in a test where two magazines that were underloaded by two lasted much longer (many more cycles of loading and shooting empty) than two identical magazines which were fully loaded each time and shot empty.

But of course! Couldn't you do more knee-bends by only going one-third of the way down as opposed to all the way to your haunches?
Think about it...

Cheers!
Tuner
 
Loading 15 rounds instead of 17rounds is hardly reducing the spring compression by 67% (two thirds). It's more like a reduction of about 12%.

Clearly, the number of cycles was much less of an issue than depth of spring compression in the test, and it was only a relatively small change in the depth of the spring compression (the last 12% of travel) which made the difference.

I would venture to bet that underloading by a single round (never allowing coil lock) would have an identical effect as underloading by two. It's that last little bit that really stresses the spring.
 
Whoops!

John Said:

Loading 15 rounds instead of 17rounds is hardly reducing the spring compression by 67% (two thirds). It's more like a reduction of about 12%.

Sorry John...Hasty mis-read on my part. I agree, that last bit provides
most of the stress, but it's still the repeated compression/extension
cycle of the spring that weakens it. I left a single stack magazine
fully loaded for over a year to test the effects. A Wolff 11-pound spring tested at 11 pounds/4 ounces new...when it came out, it tested dead on at 11 pounds. The built-in "set" allowance weakened it by 4 ounces, and it tested at the rated load. I ran the same test on a recoil spring
by leaving a slide locked rearward for 90 days with pretty much the
same results.

Good springs won't weaken much from extended compression.

Cheers!

Tuner
 
You say that extended compression won't wear a spring out.

I know that's not entirely true, because I've seen the results from tests where spring piston airguns were left cocked for long periods of time and there is no question that the springs begin to fade after awhile. Leaving a spring fully compressed for a long time definitely puts the hurt on it.

Of course a spring piston airgun spring is typically in coil lock when fully compressed.

An interesting observation...

I've noticed that most of the anecdotal evidence regarding magazine springs staying fresh after long periods of compression relates to single column magazines. The single column magazines I own don't fully coil-lock the springs when the magazine is full. The double column mag springs are pretty much compressed to the absolute limit when stuffed full of rounds.

Anyway, back to the matter at hand...

I say that cycling a spring won't wear it out if it doesn't get over compressed. Clearly that's not entirely true either, but I think it's closer to the truth.

As pointed out by someone else on this discussion and others, when someone complains about stiff mag springs, they are told to load the mag full and leave it for a month or so. No one ever tells them to take it to the range and run it through a bunch of compression/relaxation cycles. Clearly at some level, even the people who argue that cycling the spring is the main issue realize that leaving it fully compressed makes a difference.

What I'm getting at is that the DEPTH of compression is far more pertinent to spring wear than EITHER repeated cycling or long periods of compression.

In other words, you can weaken a spring by either cycling it OR leaving it compressed for a long time IF in either case it gets over-compressed (coil-bound).

If it DOESN'T get over-compressed, then neither cycling or leaving it compressed for a long time will take their toll for a very, VERY long time.
 
Yep - I am also pretty much on your page John . in fact, mag springs hardly get the cycling like an automobile motor valve spring do they, so IMO cycling is a moot point.

I do tho feel very much that any spring taken beyond its design limits is quite easily compromized. Look at tension springs in particular ... here the cycling is not much prob, compared with over-stretch beyond design rating. Not really relevant here but just threw that it in.

Mag springs are in some ways a special case ... they are not classic helical springs ... they are designed for max poundage concommitant with max excursion of movement .... thus the relatively small gauge wire used, and number of turns .. and the effective length (if uncoiled).

I take no battle with 19911 Tuner . I respect his views immensely but as I said ... cycling IMO with mag springs is hardly an issue .. certainly not when compared with valve springs and air weapons springs etc.

Oh and . yeah ... leave an air rifle spring ''cocked'' for over-long and for sure ... it will be de-rated.
 
Ahhhh. I see

You're talking about actual coil bind. Yes. Compressing a spring to the point of coil bind is beyond its design parameters and will do it in sooner than NOT compressing it to that point. Rather like running your a few hundred laps at the brickyard with the engine rpms in redline.

I was addressing the poster's question, which was:

1. Mag springs lose their 'spring' when stored while fully loaded

2. Mag springs lose their 'spring' when continually loaded and unloaded

If a magazine spring goes into coil bind when loaded to capacity, it
will fail prematurely. It's also a design flaw that should be corrected.


Cheers!

Tuner
 
tuner,
I beg to differ slightly with you........respectfully of course......

1. Mag springs lose their 'spring' when stored while fully loaded

Id say if they are compressed beyond their limits.....like you say in #2..yes..but as long as a spring is in a static state..whether relaxed or compressed (within its specified range) no "premature set" will happen.

Regarding the design flaw of over compressed springs or "spring bind" killing them early...this is an inherent design of the spring and its makeup.

Its that design flaw that makes springs work as they do...spring steel will bend and recover to its original shape..until over compressed or bend beyond its original design limitations.

The spring steel I use in my holster mouth reinforcements..will bend well beyond what I use it for...thus its a great choice for this application.

If taken beyond its design limits........it snaps, breaking in two...thats how its designed..........

Steel of all kinds spring, SS, carbon based.etc....will all "flow" or expand out when under pressure, changing its shape..when that happens..the internal structure of the original design changes and at times, weakens ...........and kills its "spring"......

Shoot well....................
 
I have mags that have been loaded for over 15 years constantly and have never had the need to replace a spring. These are carry mags and are used frequently. They function like new. Some of the springs on the 1911's I used in the service were much older than I and kept on working fine.
 
Different Experiences

Howdy again PCR....With all due respect, my experience shows different
results, and reflect Irock's statement:

-----------------------------------------
I have mags that have been loaded for over 15 years constantly and have never had the need to replace a spring.
-------------------------------------------

I was involved with a commercial Colt that had been left in Condition
One from the time of its owner's death in 1929 until his widow gave the
pistol to my step-father in 1991. The magazine was topped off, and the
mainspring fully compressed to the limit of its designed operating range.
The pistol functioned perfectly, and all springs tested to within tolerance
when checked on a gauge. To wit: Mainspring was a tick over 22 pounds
with 23 being the specified rating. Magazine spring was just shy of 11
pounds, which is spec for GI and older commercial Colts. Recoil spring
tested at 15.9 pounds...spec was 16.5....Since the pistol likely saw
some use before being left in the attic for over half a century, I'd have to
say that there's at least an even chance that the reduced load ratings
were caused by the use.

I have also tested magazine and recoil springs in years past, because
I also believed that constant compression caused a coil spring to weaken.
Magazines have been fully loaded and left for over a year with NO loss
in compressed tension, as tested on a guage. Recoil springs compressed
on a threaded rod to just shy of the coils touching....010 distance
between coils, showed less than one ounce loss of tension after a
year. You may want to get a spring gauge and do the tests yourself.
As long as you use good-quality springs, your results will be pretty much
the same. If you use poor-quality springs, all bets are off. I suggest
Wolff springs for the test. You will notice that most knowledgeable
pistolsmiths advise replacing the recoil spring at 2,000 rounds or so...
not once a year or every 2,000 rounds, whichever comes first. My statement stands.

Shoot straight!

Tuner
 
I haven't tested all my mags, but from my limited experience, it seems that most double column mags coil-lock when fully loaded.

I suppose you could call it a design flaw, but if so, it appears to be a common one...
 
I am with JohnKSa

I have a P14-45. I have heard many issues with eh Para-Ord mags. I overpack the 10 round mag it came with with 10 rounds. After 8 years, the spring has failed. The 14 rounders are still OK because I only load 10. Lucky for me, I can replace the 10 rounder.
 
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