Make your best case why todays firearms are better...

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We're going on 30 years for Glocks, no frames crumbling yet. If mine crumble in 50 years:

1) I'll be happy if I'm still functional enough to shoot them, and
2) I'll be happy to buy a new frame for 20 bucks. :rolleyes:

I think Justin summed it up nicely, and to expand on what Sam said, in competetive shooting, where people actually shoot their guns, the gun is the cheapest part of the entire equation. If 'old' guns were more durable, more accurate, more reliable, or more functional in any measureable way... everyone would be shooting them.
 
(I assume we're talking about Glocks, xDs, M&Ps, and the like?)
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Actually, I was thinking more of the Chinese knock-offs of the 870 Wingmaster as an example leading Remington to produce the cheaper Express

I guess it comes down to how much "craftsmanship" you prefer in lieu of machine-done work. There are pros and cons to both. Modern processes are more repeatable, yet the workers appear to be mere assemblers, not craftsmen; sadly, it seems most modern gunsmiths are the same.

Don't get me wrong - I have both plastic and wood, steel and aluminum, polished blue and matte black. When it comes to the beauty and craftsmanship, I'll take the older stuff every time
 
ny32182 said:
We're going on 30 years for Glocks, no frames crumbling yet. If mine crumble in 50 years:

1) I'll be happy if I'm still functional enough to shoot them, and
2) I'll be happy to buy a new frame for 20 bucks. :rolleyes:

I think Justin summed it up nicely, and to expand on what Sam said, in competetive shooting, where people actually shoot their guns, the gun is the cheapest part of the entire equation. If 'old' guns were more durable, more accurate, more reliable, or more functional in any measureable way... everyone would be shooting them.
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I've seen a few first generation police issue glock 17 pistols that are pretty crumbly around the edges and on the outer surfaces. It is scientific fact that polymers degrade when exposed to sunlight. Plastic turns brittle and cracks and crumbles and fades. The outer surfaces turn to dust and slough off.

You don't know if there will be any glock frames produced in 50 years. I would say probably not. Things get redesigned and go obsolete faster than they used to.
 
It is scientific fact that polymers degrade when exposed to sunlight.
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Heat and salt also aid in degradation... All three variables are generally present when shooting a polymer gun.
 
I would say there will be plenty of Glocks produced in 50 years. Anything that is NOT Glock or 1911, who knows, but those two platforms have defined their respective eras and will be around forever.
 
Remo, it is not that the rest of us are simple minded, it is just that your mind is so expansive that the rest of us can't keep up!

Lets see a picture of those crumbling Glocks.
 
old/new

When, exactly does "old" end and "new" begin? What, exactly, are you comparing about the two - fit and finish, functionality, accuracy?
All of those? Some?
Consider Damascus barreled firearms.....what is the standard caution about using them? An old Damascus shotgun is a thing of beauty but that doesn't mean that corrosion hasn't set in somewhere that can't be seen. Is that better than a modern gun?
Better steels today.
Pete
 
The 100 year old firearms floating around still in use will still be around 100 years from now assuming they aren't unprotected from moisture. The newly minted plastic stuff will crumble to pieces in 100 years. Plastic does not stand up to age, but it does stand up to moisture.
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HK started making the VP70 in the late '60s-early 70s, and plenty of them are still going strong. There has been no compelling evidence presented by people who dislike polymer-framed guns that they will degrade past the point of usability at any given point.

Frankly, it's been kind of hilarious watching the evolution of that argument. Shortly after Glocks hit it big, the haters were claiming the plastic frames wouldn't last ten years of heavy use.

Then it was twenty years.

Then thirty.

Then fifty.

Now, I guess we have to push the century mark for the argument that plastic is worse than metal to hold any water.

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Frankly, if the plastic guns don't hold, I have to wonder why they're so popular among competitive shooters who fire tens of thousands of rounds through them in a season.
 
You people are too simple minded.
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Please enlighten us poor simple minded people. What source did you use to predict the demise of polymer pistols? Got pics of these crumbly Glocks? Please cite your source material.

If anything we will see more polymer parts being made tougher than the old steel that made up pistols in the last century. I am a fan of wood and steel but to say that polymer is somehow inferior is just silly. But then I guess I am just simple minded.
 
Good 'ol tight tolerances, clearances, fit-n-finish... yada-yada...

I was just reading about AK-47 reliability that is attributed to LOOSE tolerances.

Beauty is in the eye of the beholder... or is there a better explanation?
 
nwilliams said:
The old phrase "they don't make 'em like they used to" is often the case in regards to firearms, although this is not always the case.

Some gun today are better than guns of the past and some guns of the past are better than some guns of today, it really depends on the gun in question and how it compares to similar guns today.

I still think that there are plenty of gun companies out there today that are making firearms of fine quality and easily as good as anything of the past. I still think (in no particular order) that S&W, Colt, HK, FN, Springfield Armory, Ruger, Remington and Beretta make very high quality products and every company has had it's ups and downs over the years. What's also true is that some companies still make certain types of guns as good as they ever did in the past, Colt AR's haven't gone down in quality, Ruger and S&W revolvers are still extremely well made, Beretta still makes top quality handguns and shotguns, FN gives us civilian versions of their military weapons that are basically identical with exception of barrel length and being semi-auto, HK may be expensive and I might suck and they may hate me but they still make firearms of outstanding quality.
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Best post in this thread thus far.

---

ps - My HK VP70z isn't crumbling at all... :neener:
 
The impressive tight tolerances of the Ortgies prompted my question,....it would appear that to achieve reliability we must now accept generous tolerances.
 
Then how do you explain the common availability of MOA-accurate rifles in factory configuration?

Modern handguns are also quite accurate as well, with nearly all of the well-known name brands selling guns that are acceptably accurate for most applications short of Bullseye competition, and a number of manufacturers offering accuracy promises with the guns that they sell.
 
Then how do you explain the common availability of MOA-accurate rifles in factory configuration?
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milliradians are harder to explain to people???
 
Gus McCrae said:
Please enlighten us poor simple minded people. What source did you use to predict the demise of polymer pistols? Got pics of these crumbly Glocks? Please cite your source material.

If anything we will see more polymer parts being made tougher than the old steel that made up pistols in the last century. I am a fan of wood and steel but to say that polymer is somehow inferior is just silly. But then I guess I am just simple minded.
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I am shocked that there are still people in this day and age that are not aware of the weakness polymer(plastics) have with regard to UV rays and sunlight. Have you never seen a cracked and crumbly piece of plastic lying on the ground? Or a part of a yard implement? Have you never seen checking of old car tires?

Sheesh, this isn't rocket science. You'd think I was telling everyone the sky is green and grass is blue. Read a book people. educate yourselves. Either that or just open your eyes and look around.
 
I am shocked that some people seem to think that the polymer used in firearms is the same that is used in a lawn rake.

You have yet to cite your source or provide evidence of these crumbling Glocks. I bet next you will swear that leaving one in a car in direct sun light will cause it to melt too... :rolleyes:
 
You have yet to cite your source or provide evidence of these crumbling Glocks.
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Oh come on Gus... you can't expect someone to EARN their credibility, can you? It's so much easier to make a claim and tell others to disprove it, than to prove it yourself from the get-go.
 
Justin said:
HK started making the VP70 in the late '60s-early 70s, and plenty of them are still going strong. There has been no compelling evidence presented by people who dislike polymer-framed guns that they will degrade past the point of usability at any given point.

Frankly, it's been kind of hilarious watching the evolution of that argument. Shortly after Glocks hit it big, the haters were claiming the plastic frames wouldn't last ten years of heavy use.

Then it was twenty years.

Then thirty.

Then fifty.

Now, I guess we have to push the century mark for the argument that plastic is worse than metal to hold any water.

attachment.php


Frankly, if the plastic guns don't hold, I have to wonder why they're so popular among competitive shooters who fire tens of thousands of rounds through them in a season.
Click to expand...
good lord. I expect more from a moderator. What a crying shame. tsk tsk and shame on you!
 
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