Man...I'm confused...please help.

[FB_Coach]

Getting into reloading, as in doing tons of research before i buy anything. I have read the book "ABC's of reloading, 9th edition.

My confusion comes in when discussing taper crimps. Oh, btw I am just going to load handgun rounds. Mostly 9mm, maybe eventually
.380 and .45.

I am leaning toward a lee classic turret. do I need the 4th die that taper crimps? will the 3rd die do this for me just as well? Is there a difference between the 4th die taper crimp and lee factory taper crimp die?

I understand what a taper crimp is and its purpose. I just cannot figure out how to achieve it and if it is even necessary and in which step of the process.

The real confusion comes in when people discuss a taper crimp and a factory taper crimp?

Please help and use small words as I am new to this and it is confusing! Thanks

 

[LiveLife]

When I help set up a new reloader, I have them work on their reloads without the FCD (4th die) because FCD can "erase" mistakes made on other dies. If you can get your rounds to drop in freely into your chamber with the barrel out of the pistol using the 3 dies, then you are good to go. You can always use the FCD afterwards for the extra finish on the rounds.

As to taper crimp, I just take in the flare so it is flat against the bullet. Some prefer a bit more, but flat works for me.

 

[FB_Coach]

so the FCD and the 4th die are the same thing? But the 3rd die crimps too, right? Is it a roll crimp?

 

[243winxb]

Go to the Lee FAQ link below for help.

 

[LiveLife]

Ooops, 243winxb and I posted at the same time.

so the FCD and the 4th die are the same thing? But the 3rd die crimps too, right? Is it a roll crimp?

No, 3rd bullet seat/taper crimp die seats the bullet and taper crimps the case. 4th FCD only crimps the case.

From Lee's FAQ page:

Factory Crimp die advantages

The Factory crimp die can be a useful addition to your reloading process. It not only ensures that the bullet will not be pushed back into the case, but it can also duplicate the effect of seating the bullet out to nearly touch the rifling. The initial resistance to overcome the crimp is nearly the same as that which is required to start a bullet seated out close to the rifling. This die has no provision for seating the bullet.

 

[Walkalong]

do I need the 4th die that taper crimps?

No

will the 3rd die do this for me just as well?

Yes, the seater will crimp. With an auto caliber using a light crimp there is no reson not to do it in the same step unless you just don't want to.

Is there a difference between the 4th die taper crimp and lee factory taper crimp die?

You can use a separate taper crimp die in a fourth step if you want. That die crimps only. No seating, no squishing the round with a carbide insert.

The "Factory Crimp Die" (FCD) is a crimp die that has a carbide insert in it. The insert is supposed to be the right diameter so that the round is squeezed down if it is over SAMMI spec. (Too fat) It can make a round that has been poorly done fit by squeezing out the mistake.

The best way to fix the mistake is not make it in the first place, so I am not a fan of the FCD.

It can be handy if one is reloading in mass quantity using mixed cases with possibly fat bullets and you want to be sure they will chamber and don't want to check each one with a case gauge.

A jam in a competition is worse than any small problems the FCD might (or might not) cause.

Is it a roll crimp?

It depends on the caliber. It will be a roll crimp for calibers like .38 Spl, .357, etc, and a taper crimp for calibers like 9MM, .40, etc.

 

[Minnesota Wild]

I think what you really want to know is how to tell what kind of crimp your dies are putting on the round. The dies should say if it's a roll crimp or a taper crimp, though virtually all dies for auto calibers are taper crimp as you need to leave a lip on the cartridge for headspacing.

The FCD puts either a taper or roll depending on the round, but it also does something similar to a sizing operation during the process to make the rounds more uniform.

 

[bigflash1]

I use the same setup you are talking about with the Lee press and the 4 die set. I'm loading 45's and without fail, from day one, the rounds all function and perform exactly as they should. I've found that the normal pile of range brass and lead bullets are in different size and shapes and the last die in the 4 die set does a finish sizing as well as the crimp making it nearly (in my case) ID10T proof.

 

[FB_Coach]

No

Yes, the seater will crimp. With an auto caliber using a light crimp there is no reson not to do it in the same step unless you just don't want to.


You can use a separate taper crimp die in a fourth step if you want. That die crimps only. No seating, no squishing the round with a carbide insert.

The "Factory Crimp Die" (FCD) is a crimp die that has a carbide insert in it. The insert is supposed to be the right diameter so that the round is squeezed down if it is over SAMMI spec. (Too fat) It can make a round that has been poorly done fit by squeezing out the mistake.

The best way to fix the mistake is not make it in the first place, so I am not a fan of the FCD.

It can be handy if one is reloading in mass quantity using mixed cases with possibly fat bullets and you want to be sure they will chamber and don't want to check each one with a case gauge.

A jam in a competition is worse than any small problems the FCD might (or might not) cause.

It depends on the caliber. It will be a roll crimp for calibers like .38 Spl, .357, etc, and a taper crimp for calibers like 9MM, .40, etc.

Thanks this is cool info. I really like this site. Very helpful and patient with the newbs!

So would it be correct to say that the 4th die corrects, fixes and maybe even MASKS mistakes and problems??? Can this be dangerous?

 

[1KPerDay]

Thanks for the info guys... I should be getting a LCT soon and this will be useful.

 

[Walkalong]

Can this be dangerous?

No. The post sizing is not dangerous in any way. It just isn't needed. (although it can be useful) Millions of rounds were loaded successfully before the FCD was invented, and millions more will be loaded successfully without it. Learn the craft without it, and then choose to use it if you want to, not because you need it to squish your rounds into shape.

 

[Floppy_D]

I moved away from the FCD. A properly adjusted seater will remove any casemouth belling... which is all of the crimping you need. In almost all instances it's neck tension that holds the bullet in place, not the crimp.

 

[RandyP]

I use a 4-die set in my LCT for all 3 calibers. I did have to buy the .380 auto FCD as a separate purchase.

I look at it this way, I have to pull the handle 4 times regardless, so I may as well make each one do something - lol

With 3 dies in the 4 hole turret, you still have to cycle the turret past the 'empty' hole.

 

[Walkalong]

you still have to cycle the turret past the 'empty' hole.

Which won't hurt a thing.

 

[RB98SS]

I have grown to like the Lee FCDs, and really for one reason only. It allows me to lock my seating die in a position on the press and never have to loosen the locking nut in order to adjust my crimp. With the addition of the FCD on the press, I can make all my seat and crimp adjustments with the knurled knobs on top of the dies. No tool required.

 

[918v]

I recommend you get the 4th die. Seating and crimping at the same time is frustrating. Seperaqting those steps brings harmony to reloading and produces better quality ammo.

But don't get the FCD. Get a standard taper crimp die. You don't need that carbide ring ruining your case tension.

 

[MrOldLude]

Do I need the 4th die? No. But I like it and use it anyway. Just an extra layer of precaution for me.

 

[ranger335v]

As an alternative view, the Lee FCD feature in question here is the "post seating sizer ring."

If your loaded round isn't too large it won't touch the cartridge so it will have no effect at all. If your loaded round IS too large it will size the case down to the normal maximum diameter. It's rare that any round is massively too large so the potential for bullet damage is much less than you may think and, if it IS much too large you would otherwise likely have a cartridge jam which is a much larger problem than a slight loss of accuracy.

Lee has sold tens of thousands of FCDs and you can be certain those users aren't idiots! []

 

[Walkalong]

Nope, not idiots, just bought into a good advertising campaign.

If your loaded round isn't too large it won't touch the cartridge so it will have no effect at all. If your loaded round IS too large it will size the case down to the normal maximum diameter.

If.... if.... it's the right diameter.

 

[BigJakeJ1s]

Just pay attention, and if you start feeling resistance on the FCD stroke (other than at the top of the stroke, when the actual taper crimp is happening), either on the way in, or on the way out of the die, on more than the occasional cartridge, it is an indication that something else is not right. The FCD will iron over the issues so the cartridge will chamber, but it is not "fixing" the problem at the source where it should be addressed (expander, seater, or crimp adjustment usually).

Since Lee does not sell four die sets with a conventional taper crimp die, you're probably just as well to use the FCD that comes in the set. Note this goes for taper crimping only. Roll crimping is easily accomplished while seating, and the roll-crimping FCD I have for 45 colt is not a good roll crimper at all. If you'd rather roll crimp separately, Redding and Dillon both sell separate conventional roll crimp dies (Redding is called a Profile crimp die).

Andy

 

[RustyFN]

So would it be correct to say that the 4th die corrects, fixes and maybe even MASKS mistakes and problems???

Yes but not in a way that you won't know it. If a round is out of spec and the post sizing ring in the FCD comes into play you will feel the extra force it takes you on the handle to push the round into the die. When that happens you will know there is a problem. I like to use the FCD but as a case gage so I don't have to use a case gage or the barrel of the gun after to make sure all of my ammo will chamber. I have been using a classic turret and FCD's for five years and out of thousands of loaded rounds only had two get post sized. You don't need it like others said and I agree with them to not use it to fix bad ammo but I think the FCD is a great tool if used correctly. Congrats on your set up and welcome to reloading.

 

[Hondo 60]

I have grown to like the Lee FCDs, and really for one reason only. It allows me to lock my seating die in a position on the press and never have to loosen the locking nut in order to adjust my crimp. With the addition of the FCD on the press, I can make all my seat and crimp adjustments with the knurled knobs on top of the dies. No tool required.

+1 - I like the FDC just cuz I can adjust the crimp w/o tools.
Then I'm adjusting one thing at a time.

 

[Funshooter45]

I kinda like the FCD for my revolver loads. Nah, you don't need em really, but they are kind of convenient sometimes. I started out loading without them. It took me a little while to figure out how to properly seat and crimp at the same time, but eventually I did for my .357, .44 mag, and .45 Colt loads. But it was kind of a hassle for awhile to get it all adjusted just right. Eventually I heard about the FCD and tried them and thought it was wonderful! I loaded with them for quite awhile even though it meant an extra handling with my single stage press. Later on, I kind of got lazy and by then realized I didn't need to crimp as much as I thought, so it was easier to go back to crimping and seating at the same time.

One day though I loaded up some .480 Rugers and seated and crimped in the same step. I didn't have a FCD for that round (it's a custom order thing from Lee for that caliber). Those rounds need a heavier crimp than the lowly .45 Colt or .44 mag. At some point I must have changed the crimping part of the die and it bulged the cases a hair too much to chamber the last 50 rounds or so in my BFR. I ended up fixing them by running the loaded rounds through the sizing die again minus the decapping stud. It worked out OK but it was a PITA.

Nowdays, I load with a Lee Classic Turret. And yeah, I use the FCD for the .44 and .45 Colt and .454 and even the .357. It's just a simple nother stroke of the handle. No, I never did order the FCD from Lee for the .480. Instead I load it completely through the seating process except for the crimping. Then after I'm all done almost I adjust that die to crimp only and run them through again. Adds another step of handling the rounds, but I don't do .480 in high volumes anyway.

 

[GLOOB]

I finally found a use for the FCD when I bought my first lot of .40 SW range brass. I found about a quarter of it was bulged at the base, and full length resizing didn't always fix it. 1 in 50 of these reloads wouldn't drop freely into my pistol chamber. Using the FCD didn't remedy this, either.

But if you use a push-through adapter (e.g. the Lee Bulge Buster) you can push the entire cartridge (or just the empty brass) through the FCD carbide ring. This removes the bulge. So I recommend you get the 4 die set if you buy Lee. The Bulge Buster kit will work with most auto pistol calibers except 9mm.

If you can't wait for the Bulge Buster to arrive, you can fill a 9mm case with epoxy to use as a push through adapter. And a rolled up tube of paper in the top of the FCD will keep case mouths from catching on the screw threads that are exposed when the crimping ring is removed.