Management Bucks?

[MikePGS]

Apparently they have like five or six hunting shows on espn in a row on Saturday, so I watched probably 3 or 4 of them. Anyways a common theme was the person hosting the show (and or his grandkids) would specifically target older bucks, like six years or so because they were past their breeding prime and therefore wouldn't hinder further development of future trophy bucks. Now I've hunted maybe twice, and that was over ten years ago and I basically recall being told to shoot anything with antlers (any deer that is). I plan on hunting next season (November '09) but most likely it will be on state land. Is this something I should be concerned about, or should I just shoot the buck I want, since it will be on public land and the next guy will probably not care about how old the deer is and shoot it?

 

[Nathanael_Greene]

Not sure where you'll be hunting, but you might consider shooting a doe instead. Many states are overpopulated with does anyway.

 

[MikePGS]

Mid to Upper Lower Peninsula of Michigan. I'm not sure, but I think I have to get a special permit (a lottery I think) to shoot a doe.

 

[usmcpmi]

Mike PGS, Not sure about MI. Here in Texas, the number of deer as well as the sex is determined by each county. Travis County has a "No Does" restriction this year. Bucks must have a spread of at least 12" and be at least a spike. Limit, one. In south Texas where I hunt, the ranch has a "Management Permit" and are allowed to breed, and cull animals as they see fit. Mind you, this ranch is 4500 acres, and is "High fenced" completely. There are also several seperate breeding pens that are 20- 50 acres each. I went down in November and shot two "Management Does" 125 lbs each. I understand they have 50 or so more to shoot. They also "cull out" any bucks that have deformed or "ugly" racks. This is so they don't breed and pass the bad genes on down the line, since the shape and size of the rack is determined by genes and the ammount of feed/protein the have access to during the year. On BLM or State land, I would check the specific regulations for that area. Use that as a guideline. Most importantly....WEAR ORANGE!!!! the deer can't see it, but the idiot hunting near you should be able to....Never know who is in the woods with you. Good luck! MG

 

[DRYHUMOR]

+1 on shooting the does, especially this time of year, as most of them are bred.

Like shooting management bucks, shooting does balances the ratios. I spoke to a wildlife officer yesterday. And it came up that he manages 1400 acres privately for a third party. He said he had had some concerns about hitting the does hard until he caught a trail camera photo that contained 18 bucks and 2 does.

I've got a buddy who allows doe shooting the last two weeks of the season. All of them in the past have had one or two in them, the 12 to 15 shot in essence remove 25 to 35 from the herd. It eases the strain on the available food, and stresses the herd less overall.

And, there are more bucks seen throughout the year.

 

[Dr. Tad Hussein Winslow]

Well, it just depends on what you're goal is. In your situation, it sounds like you should shoot ANY buck that comes along, or any doe (if legal to do so). Or you might want to let the younger/smaller bucks pass on the hopes that another hunter won't shoot it and it will be bigger next year (or the next).

To my way of thinking and understanding, a "management deer" is one that is killed to enhance the health of the herd overall, OR to cull out undesirable genes.

So a "management doe" is just ANY doe if the ratio is out of whack, and does need to be killed to help restore a better ratio of bucks to doe, or just to reduce deer population in general, if it's overpopulated (to prevent disease, ticks, DVCs, etc.). I always shoot does if I can and have a tag for one, because our ratio is out of whack, and the ratio being out of whack makes it much harder to get trophy bucks, because they don't have to compete for does, so things like mock scrapes, grunting and rattling don't work as well on bigger bucks.

A "management buck" is one of ANY age which has deformed antlers, if you are trying to promote large nice typical antler genes. So to me, no, just being an old deer doesn't make it a management deer, and if fact, how are you gonna tell anyway hold old it is just by looking? You can't. Besides, an OLD buck is gonna have large antlers, so you're going to shoot it anyway, because that's what you're looking for. So an old deer is not killed *because* it's a "management buck"; it's good because it's a "good buck" - but either way, you take the shot if presented.

If it's old AND just happens to have deformed antlers, then yes you'd want to shoot it, but that comes under the heading of "shoot any deer of any age with deformed antlers".

But on private land, or on public land in spots where very few hunters go, if the antlers are not deformed, then the rule is simple: let the bucks walk, unless they're big enough to be a trophy TO YOU. That will change over time as you harvest bigger and bigger bucks.

For me, right now, with a BOW, I would and will shoot any buck that I think is 2.5 years old or older, with an 8 point or better rack that is more than about 15" across. But with a gun or muzzleloader, I'm not going to shoot a buck unless it's a true trophy (to me) - at least 20" across and big, thick, long antlers.

 

[3pairs12]

Mike these guys shooting "management deer" are probably trying to improve the quality of the bucks on their property. On public land I wouldn't be overly concerned about being managment minded. If you are seeing a lot of deer maybe hold off for a mature buck. If you are seeing a limited number of deer don't pass on anything legal.

 

[interlock]

deer management through culling.

it is a really tough subject and depends on what you wish to achieve by your shooting.

I manage a piece of land of 2500 acres that has roe deer, these are similar to your white tails (and i believe are closely related). When i started on the ground deer were few and far between. I carried out a programn of culling yearling and poor bucks only. I did this for about 4 years. What happens is that the breeding does achieve a higher density of territory under the territory of each good buck. Predatory pressure makes roe produce twins more often than single young. the yearling bucks are shot and do not move out onto adjacent territories. if they had moved onto adjacent territories then the does would have moved onto those areas aswell.

after a very few years of the deer recruiting at about 75% per year i have found myself where i now am having to cull does aswell. the population has increased massively

the estate now almost acts like a reservoir. I will take a few more does this winter and a few young bucks in the spring. After the rut i will look for a trophy.

It sounds like if you are all shooting a lot bucks in america that you will be precipitating this kind of population growth! no wonder in some states they want you to shoot does only!

interlock uk roe hunter

 

[usmcpmi]

INTERLOCK, Not sure about the rest of the states, but in Texas, we have a problem dealing with the city folks and PETA people not wanting to control the deer populations. The city counsel of Austin was debating a "NO FEED" law for the city controled areas. Seems the city folks feed the deer, the deer reproduce unchecked. No hunting in the city limits. Now there are so many deer, they are destroying the landscapes around the $1,000,000 homes and causing traffic accidents on a daily basis. So the politicans think they can pass a law against feeding the deer and like majic the problem is solved. Typical idiots. Now you will just have more hungry deer tearing up more property to survive. They need to have apermited hunt to decrease the current population, then manage the rest. Just another reason I don't live in the city.
By the way, we do shoot both does and bucks here. Herd management is done on all high fenced ranches. The only areas not under a management program are the private farm and cattle ranches. The State manages the State owned lands through local bag limits, and surveys on harvested animals. MG

 

[stevereno1]

No worries friend! They are hunting on ranches and want to kill 5+ year old bucks that have 8 points or less. This is a management decision that is made by the land owner, and has no bearing on public hunting lands. BTW, in most of these "hunting" shows, they are hunting very near to a feeder, and are shooting "ducks in a barrel" Disgusting. Real hunting is getting rarer, and rarer. Canned hunts are for retards.

 

[moosehunt]

From my point of view, I think you Eastern folks have some weird ideas. It's hard enough to find a deer, and the shooting of does has a big effect on the population, as she now doesn't reproduce! So, you kill a doe, you really kill at least 2 deer, possibly 3, and that's just considering that year! I am opposed to the shooting of does, period! That is your reproductive base! Bucks cover a lot of does, so removing one doesn't hurt reproduction, but removing a doe has a big negative effect! Years ago they used to have doe tags, and being young and dumb, I applied and got a couple. From that I also learned that does are not near as good eating, either.

 

[Art Eatman]

"Proper" management varies with locale. In parts of central Texas, there oughta be a bounty on does. All year 'round, day or night, cull the herd because of high over-population for the habitat.

Down here in my desert country, anybody who shoots a doe oughta go to jail for being terminal stoopid.

 

[Davek1977]

moosehunt, if finding a deer is "hard enough" and you are against the shooting of does, I take it you haven't been to the many states with grossly excessive deer populations. My family owns and operates a ranch in south centrol South Dakota, and deer populations are ANYTHING but slim. On any given evening, I could fill both my tags, both my dad's tags, and my brother-in-law's too, if I were so inclined....and I wouldn't have to step off our deck to do so, and no, we don't feed or bait them! Some areas are in desperate need to management, and by management, I mean the taking of does. Its not at all uncommon to see a 100 deer plus in a normal day of hunting. I guess living in such ciurcumstances, I get a kick out of people who are against the hunting of does and believe "its hard to find a deer". The only way you don't see deer in SD these days is if you are blind or never open your eyes. Even living in a town of 13,000, I see deer more days than I don't it seems. Right now, the state GFP is issuing two doe tag licenses, and a LOT of them. In fact, in the unti where I hunt, I can still purchase 2 tag licenses for this season, even though I already recieved 2 (one "any deer" tag and one antlerless) in the first drawing. We have more doesw than we have people willing to shoot them, and a drive down any stretch of interstate or highway will confirm this.....just last week, I drove by a cornfield adjacent to the interstate...in less than a mile of blacktop, I counted roughly 5-7 deer carcasses....in my lanes only. Who knows how many were in the eastbound lanes? I sincerely doubt anyone would doubt the need for taking does had they spent any measureable amount of time away from home.... theres definitely a surplus of deer in some areas, to the point where even prolific multi-doe tags have very little impact on the overall well-being of the herd as a whole.

 

[interlock]

management does not just mean reducing numbers. it is possible to manage numbers upwards, as i did on that one area. but on other areas we try to manage muntjac numbers downwards. shooting does is hugely important to this process

 

[bad_aim_billy]

Well, if you're hunting lower peninsula state land, I would try for a doe. You'll be lucky enough to see one of those.

As far as "management bucks" go, those are almost always private ranches where they try to improve their breeding. I guess everyone wants to play scientist at some point in their life, however most of us outgrow that fantasy by late childhood...