Many dangerous game rifles fail the field test...

Status
Not open for further replies.
Why not 50 bmg? There are bolt action and semiauto 50 BMGs that are plenty reliable and less bulky than the barrett. And there are plenty more in development.

All the emphasis on balky exotics shooting odd calibers seems silly when we have perfectly reliable military arms in a beefier caliber, readily available.
 
A few reasons I can think of:

1. The .50 is rimless - see the point above re tearing off the rim on extraction.
2. Semi-autos are not allowed for hunting in any African country that I'm aware of.
3. Bolt-actions aren't as fast as a double for a second shot at something bent on eating you - haven't yet seen a .50 BMG double and I wouldn't want to walk all day with one.
 
Why not 50 bmg?

The .50 BMG is simply not a realistic caliber to use in a fast handling, light weight, well fit rifle that points like a divining rod.

If you ever have the privilege of following up a buffalo or an elephant or possibly a lion in thick thorn jesse, or long grass where the visibility is limited to mere feet you will very quickly figure out why you need a rifle that is lighting fast to shoulder, aim and fire.

Because when he comes, you have less than a split second to either become a swatter or the swatted. Which is why many people who are in the know don't like the M-70 safety, it is awkward and slow to slide off while raising the rifle to make a split second snap shot on something that will kill your sorry butt if you don't do it right the first time.

That is why I like a double. It just like rising with a well fit shotgun. The safety is on the tang and slides off without conscious effort and the gun naturally is pointed where ever you are looking. At close very range the sights aren't even needed just point and shoot, like a shotgun.

To me caliber is less important than the package it comes in. But in general a DG should produce about 5,000 Ft lbs and be .400 or larger in diameter.
 
People just havent put their minds to it yet. There is no reason that someone couldn't make a lightweight pump, bolt or semiauto 50 bmg with a big muzzle break. It might be a bit brutal on the shoulder, but it wouldnt fail IMO. You dont need 1000 yard accuracy in a brush gun so a lot of the features required in a long range target rifle can be tossed aside. If it held 4 moa out to 600 yards that would probably be outstanding, so long as it was lightweight and reliable.

A lot of the problems I saw described in that article never should have happened in the first place. Who the hell still uses a spring loaded ejector anymore (besides the US military that is)? What sane person bets their life on reloading by stuffing rounds in the top of a gun? We've got all these excellent innovations that have been around in the military and self defense field for decades and "sporting" manufactures seem to disregard them.

Honestly I would be happy with something a bit beefier than the 7.62x54 in a saigunov type game rifle- maybe a 458 socom AK made from a rebarreled 223? Reliable and hard hitting. With a long barrel, you could probably get very respectable power from it.
 
beerslurpy,

You must have missed the whole thing about no semi autos allowed anywhere in in Africa for hunting purposes?:)

The .458 Socom doesn't even come close to making the grade for a DG round.

As far as a massive break on a light weight .50BMG first of all that would redefine the term “OBNOXIOUS” when it comes to muzzle blast. The darn thing would do serious, permanent hearing damage to any and all hunters and staff within close proximity.

As I've mentioned there is no problem with the rounds currently used for DG. And there are plenty of good rifles available as well. A hunter must simply choose to use one.

Your .50 BMG idea is a solution for which there is no problem. It is fun to dream of these things though isn't it!;)
 
So what I got from that is... all American rifles suck but CZ will do in a pinch. Don't buy a .458 for any reason.

So the CZ 550 Magnum in .375 is still a reasonably priced and respected rifle for the average hunter?

I'm not planning on being a professional guide.

Oh and there are caliber minimums for dangerous game in most countries... .375 H&H is the minimum.
 
What I got from this:

The bolt action, a relatively slow repeater that dates back to the black powder era and was designed for military use when rifles were for long-distance shooting but bayonets were used for close combat, doesn't suddenly become the best choice for short-range rapid firing when the shooter is being charged by a lion or cape buffalo.

The push-feed bolt action, designed for simplicity and minimal maintenance, doesn't suddenly perform like the more complex and better-engineered controlled-round feed action, which is designed and built to feed reliably, cost-be-damned, when the shooter is under extreme stress. (I have a push-feed hunting rifle I like, but I am aware of the limitations of the design.)

The Mauser action, if and only if perfectly built and maintained, still feeds the most reliably, like everyone has said for the past century (CZ's are Mauser designs, too, AFAIK).

Problems that don't manifest themselves with the .30-06, appear with great frequency when you stuff enormous, high-pressure rounds in the same actions and expect them to work perfectly in hot, dirty, high-stress conditions.

Those who frown on the use of the bolt action on charging dangerous game are right, and have always been right, especially if they favor the quick-pointing, quick-shooting, reliable double rifle.

It's a bummer that double rifles are more expensive than Land Rovers.:)

There's no free lunch.

This was instructive, and thanks for reminding me of the limitations of my boltie. It's important that I do remember, because we, too, have a few dangerous animals around. I'm not going to sell it in disgust, though. I knew about a lot of this stuff when I bought it. I just won't expect a $500 gun to do the job of a $5000 gun.:)
 
So what I got from that is... all American rifles suck but CZ will do in a pinch. Don't buy a .458 for any reason.

Dr. Rob,

Except the M-70 which is moot point because it no longer exists. The CZ is a solid action that has been ruined by the BS safety that has been put on the newer ones.

The CZ safety issue can be fixed with an after market bolt shroud.

I just won't expect a $500 gun to do the job of a $5000 gun.

Armed bear,

BINGO!!:D

If a guy is looking for a solid reliable accurate double for about 1/3rd the cost of a land rover go get a Searcy PH model in the caliber of your choice. They are the best most reliable double in that price category without a doubt.

www.searcyent.com
 
Now, I'm just a simple guy, and the most dangerous thing I've had the opportunity to is a white tail deer, but I've gotta get this straight....

every single American made gun is a total piece of crap. Pretty much totally unreliable. I can buy the thing about the .416 Rem. I see that as a disaster in progress. I've never been impressed by Weatherby rifles (I have a Weather shotgun that's great).

Doubles are too expensive. Mausers can't be made to feed well. The .458 Win is a wuss round unfit for chipmunks.

So......if I'm going to Africa, what the heck do I get that spits out more than one round before self destructing???

I assume it's the Searcy listed above. At 10k, guess I'm not going any time soon. Fun to dream though. Kinda sad that the "majors' can't make something reliable.
 
Doubles are too expensive. Mausers can't be made to feed well. The .458 Win is a wuss round unfit for chipmunks.

redneck2,

The major difference between what Don Heath of the Zimbabwe Professional Hunters Assoc is reporting and what you read about in gun rags is quite simple really.

Don is reporting it how it happened. He's got nothing to sell.

There are plenty of rifles that with a small amount of tuning are fantastic DG rifles. Very few are truely servicable out of the box.
 
Good article, with the exception of this quote:

no country are better sportsmen to be found than in the United States of America, nor does any country posses keener buyers or better men of business, yet in no country is so much worthless rubbish of the (mass production) gun-factories offered for sale.

There's a reason we have such a wide gamut of quality in guns, from the world class to junk.....because even the poorest of our society can and does own weaponry, whereas in most countries, all but the most elite cannot. So, when you're the Earl of Snobhash, and you want a gun you buy a Sachs and Fuchs double gun, not a $279 Savage.

To people who don't live here and understand our gun culture, they see it entirely wrong.

Gun snobbery, meet culture bias.
 
I think Swingset nailed it rather well.
There's a reason we have such a wide gamut of quality in guns, from the world class to junk.....because even the poorest of our society can and does own weaponry, whereas in most countries, all but the most elite cannot. So, when you're the Earl of Snobhash, and you want a gun you buy a Sachs and Fuchs double gun, not a $279 Savage.

To people who don't live here and understand our gun culture, they see it entirely wrong.

Gun snobbery, meet culture bias.

That is an excellent observation. Although the writer's views of the weapons are valuable information, he is a guy who has been in the petri dish of social experimentation too long.
 
The point is that to hunt dangerous African game, you need the right tools and, for the reasons swingset pointed out, few - if any - are actually made in the USA. Pity - would be nice to own a suitable, relatively inexpensive DG double.
 
The point that really needs to be made, which has been made more or less, is that American rifles are built for American hunting by and large. The largest single block of hunters go after white tailed deer, pronghorn, and elk. For these animals, a push-feed Remington 710 is enough (and I really hated to say that). The numbers of riflemen heading to Africa to hunt dangerous game is small enough that the big companies would not make too much money in catering to them. Custom guys can, but the margins just aren't there for Remington or the like. Sure, there are many fellows who go dg hunting in Africa, but as a percentage of hunters in the US, it is well below 1%.

The dangerous game rifle is such a niche product that it really depends on a niche producer. Grizzly bear is our dangerous game animal, and even it is a very small percentage of total hunted animals. American rifles are more than enough for bear hunts.

Ash
 
That is an excellent observation. Although the writer's views of the weapons are valuable information, he is a guy who has been in the petri dish of social experimentation too long.

I have to respectfully disagree. Zimbabwe is one of the poorest countries on the planet. Most PH's make very little money. Most shoot what ever they can afford. However the rifle chosen will be a solid, serviceable, reliable rifle for the most part. Rifles that meet that description are getting harder and harder to find. The CZ or the older BRNO are the most common working mans rifle I see over there.


Once again whether it upsets you or not he is simply reporting it as it happened. And the plain simple fact is that most mass produced American rifles fail the test.

These guys are looking at a rifle from a different standpoint than your average deer hunter. If your rifle fails you, no big deal you don't get your deer today. If their rifle fails somebody may well get maimed or killed whether it be a hunter a staff member or worse yet a paying client.

I'd hardly call that snobbery or cultural bias. It's called cold, hard, reality. Sometimes the truth hurts.

Every DG rifle I own is American built. And all of them are rock solid DG platforms. It just takes a bit of know how and fine tuning.

If you go back and read the original article Don never even mentions double rifles. He also warns against English rifles of unknown pedigree and states that not a single one was present.

All of the guns he mentions are pretty much working class rifles. These comments about snobbery and class distinction are totally off the mark. They are completely without foundation
 
It will be interesting to see how Ruger's new rifles chambered in .375 Ruger are accepted by DG hunters. Controlled feed, shallow-V rear sight with large bead front in 20" and 24" barrel configurations.
 
I'd be interested in hearing about the performance of the new Winchester 1895 in .405 Win as well. They would appear to represent a significant cost savings in a medium-heavy rifle, but I'm not hearing anything about them shaking the world. I can walk into my local Griffin & Howe, (Hahaha, I love saying that) and they still go for less than half of your typical FN build mauser action .375 H&H (with German scope, to be fair.) Personally I think the new 1895 sights suck, and need a lot of $ in terms of reciever peep installed, but I'm not doing this for money in Africa.
 
Every DG rifle I own is American built. And all of them are rock solid DG platforms. It just takes a bit of know how and fine tuning.

What kind of tuning needs to be done?
 
H&H Hunter - I probably was not egzactly clear - I meant most guys with the European outlook also have the view that only nobility should have guns. This comes from conditioning in their school system, etc. I don't know much about Zimbabwe, but I would hazard that they came up under the olde Englishe school system where the poor people are considered less than worthy of owning personal weapons, at least since WWII.

That was what my comment was about. Here in USA everybody can own guns and guns of all prices are produced to suit all pocketbooks. In Britain, only handbuilt guns are available to the upper crust. Your comments about the working class bolt actions are well taken, and I'm sorry that we seemed to disagree. We are in total agreement.

The other comments about American guns are designed for American hunting is right on. We don't need or want to pay for elephant stoppers here. In Rhodesia, you need the big bore thumpers. It's a fact of life.
 
What kind of tuning needs to be done?

On Win M-70 controlled feed gun the following things need to be addressed.

1. If the gun is an SS you need to throw away the plastic stock and re stock it with something that is either aluminum pillar block bedded or a really good synthetic that is properly bedded like a Mc Millian.

If the gun is a wood stocked gun it needs to be properly bedded and cross bolted otherwise it is going to crack especially in larger than .375 H&H calibers.

2. Most guys replace the claw extractor with one made of a stronger stiffer steel.

3. The bolt shroud MUST be checked for play. If it is to loose it must be tightened up. If the bolt shroud is loose the bolt can be slightly lifted with the safety on the full aft position locking the safety on! This is exactly what happened to Keith Attcheson while his wife was being mauled by a buffalo and he couldn't get his safety off on his M-70. She was very nearly killed before the buff was finally shot again.

4. The feed lips must be checked and modified as appropriate so as to make sure the darn thing feeds EVERY time from any angle. Along with the feed lips I recommend changing the follower spring and the follower to the old metal type that locks into the spring head.

5. I've heard of problems with the anti bind rails on M-70's some people modify them as well.

atblis,

Yes the .458 lott makes it because it does what the .458 Win was supposed to do. It will reliably fire a 500gr bullet @ 2150 FPS each and every single time with no compression of the powder.

The 458 win was supposed to replicate the old British nitro rounds IE a 500gr bullet @ 2150. The .458 win has been infamous at producing far less velocity than that in factory rounds. I think the hand loader can make good use of the .458 win however.

Guys being the kind of guys we are (gun nuts) try to make the Lott into a fire breathing super mag. It can push a 500gr bullet up to 2300 + but there is no reason to this. All that does is cause some serious recoil and high case pressure. I load my Lott to about 2150 to 2200 and it is a very reliable consistent killer of thick skinned DG.

Just like my 470 NE. Gee.... It also fires a 500 gr bullet @ 2150. Hmmmmm. There might be something to that.
 
Last edited:
I don't know much about Zimbabwe, but I would hazard that they came up under the olde Englishe school system where the poor people are considered less than worthy of owning personal weapons, at least since WWII.

BigG,

Thanks for the reply.

Here is an amazing little factoid about Zimbabwe. Citizens can and do own guns in Zimbabwe. Of course it is not nearly as free and easy as it is for us here in the USA. It is still like the old british days where you have to get a permit for each weapon from the local constable. But outside of South Africa, Zimbabwe may well be one of the most liberal gun ownership countries in all modern Africa.

Another thing that amazes me about Zimbabwe is the liberal rules on citizen hunting. They have hunting licenses and hunting areas for common citizens. Hunting is a pretty easy thing to do in Zimbabwe if you are a citizen. I've seen just regular working Joes (both black and white guys) out for the weekend hunting with their buddies. Most are carrying CZ'z in .30-06 or .375. I have not seen any upper crust weapons in Zim in the hands of either PH's or citizen hunters. These guys are all just pretty much serious hunters who want serious no BS rifles.


The reason all of this amazes me is that there is indeed still a hint of the old colonial snobbery with some of the guys of old British decent. But the really amazing thing to me is that any citizen at all can own a weapon considering that the country is now ruled by a vicious, brutal, Marxist dictator who was put into power by non other than the U.N. and Jimmy Carter.

Now you move up to Tanzania and you'll defiantly catch a look at some of the finer "lord Snobershod" style weapons. Gee look ain't that one "Purdy".:)
 
I often wonder what condition these rifles are in.

I just got off the phone with Ahlmanns, for years one of the largest warranty service providers for factories anywhere. I talked to the head of the repair division and asked him how many remington extractors they had replaced, He commented that he knew about 7 - 8 of them in the 20 plus years he was working there. He said all but one were in rifles so filthy that crud had gotten in the slot in the bolt head and provided a fulcrum to crack the part. Makes me wonder what the condition of the rifles he was using was?


Re the Ruger ejector. I just went down stairs and ran empty 375 shells thru mine slamming the bolt back as fast a could and not one falled to kick out, I was slamming them hard enough to actually have a little dry wall repair in the den, but not one of them failed to kick out, small test lot, i agree, but I have never seen a ruger fail to eject unless it was completely fouled with dirt.

Just my two cents
 
I think you're missing a few things

First, the one in a thousand thing is what you don't want.

I don't think it's that the Remington extractors break, it's that they fail to perform.

I think there's some other issues, such as figure in some really hot conditions, fire the gun, and then see how it extracts (not in your basement).
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top