Marine Corps rifle qulaification

[Tirod]

I was in high school '68 to '71 and attended a field day at Ft. Lost in Woods. They were demonstrating Quick Kill on the ranges - using Alka Selzter tablets, and the NCOIC worked his way down to a dime. The explanation of the program was that in Vietnam you didn't get time to work up a sight picture in the dense growth, you had one opportunity to hit the enemy in the few seconds they appeared and that's all you got.

At that time the military was already considering, testing, and USING optics, the raid to recover POWs in North Vietnam had some weapons equipped with them. http://pullig.dyndns.org/retroblackrifle/ModGde/Aces/SinglePoint.html

From there Aimpoint in Sweden developed the first commercial red dot with no erector mechanism, using a size "N" battery with a life of about 8 hours. http://www.aimpoint.com/uploads/tx_pxaaimpoint//Electronic_75_77_RF.png

I had one of those mounted on a HK91 for deer hunting in the late '70s. It IS far superior to iron sights for quick sighting and a fast shot - entirely the reason we have gone to it.

 

[Speedo66]

That sounds unfortunately familiar. You wouldn't happen to know if they were doing that same thing at Fort Leonard Wood about that time frame would you? (Or Benning or Bragg?) Dad did the same thing to me with a CO2 pistol that he had purposely taken the front sight off of just for that reason. It didn't work for me but I've seen my sister hit sparrows in the air with the same pistol.

As the post above mentions, yes, they were using Quick Kill at Ft. Leonard Wood. Generally, training is universal throughout the system.

I thought it was good training, I later used it in hunting.

 

[acdodd]

OK let me tell all you Marines about my rifle qualification course in the Navy.
They loaded us up on buses and drove us to the Marine rifle range where we were met by a bunch of screaming DIs.
They gave us about an hour of lecture then to the firing line we went.
We were all given old worn out Springfields.
Shot at 200 yd. I don't think anyone qualified.
I sure as hell didn't.
Then a Di took 10 of us to the pistol range.
He put a .45 in our hand and never let go of the hand.
Told us to shoot till it went click.
No targets just a berm.
He looked at the other Di and said yep typical squids none qualified.
Then he took us to a table and let us load mags for the next 4 hours.
It's no wonder we used to sit and watch the grunts run to and from the beach with buckets of sand and yell crap at them.
Boot camp 1970 in San Diego. God I hated that place.

 

[strambo]

...

It makes me laugh when I see those flip up back up irons on rifles with the ACOG mounted. The CCO needs to be mounted a little bit farther forward than the ACOG, which allows the backups to be used. On every rifle I have seen with an ACOG it was directly over the backups so they can't be used, the optic would have to be removed first. By the time it is pointed out, most guys have already zeroed and "dummy corded" their optic and are too lazy to undo that to zero the iron sights.

...

You do realize the irons can't be used through an ACOG anyway and if it was mounted further forward you couldn't see through it due to short eye relief right? Any magnified optic has to be taken off to use the BUIS, so they were mounting them the only way possible.

I believe most Marines don't bother with a BUIS, the ACOGs are that reliable.

 

[Reloadron]

OK let me tell all you Marines about my rifle qualification course in the Navy.
They loaded us up on buses and drove us to the Marine rifle range where we were met by a bunch of screaming DIs.
They gave us about an hour of lecture then to the firing line we went.
We were all given old worn out Springfields.
Shot at 200 yd. I don't think anyone qualified.
I sure as hell didn't.
Then a Di took 10 of us to the pistol range.
He put a .45 in our hand and never let go of the hand.
Told us to shoot till it went click.
No targets just a berm.
He looked at the other Di and said yep typical squids none qualified.
Then he took us to a table and let us load mags for the next 4 hours.
It's no wonder we used to sit and watch the grunts run to and from the beach with buckets of sand and yell crap at them.
Boot camp 1970 in San Diego. God I hated that place.

Well you have to figure the mission of the Marine Corps differs considerably from the mission of the Navy. Every Marine is trained as an infantryman. Thus a full two weeks of 12 weeks of Marine Corps boot camp is devoted to marksmanship. Regardless if that Marine is going into a technical field they are infantry trained with an emphasis on marksmanship.

During my close to ten years in the Corps over 50% of my time was spent working with the Navy in the NAVAIR community. Following the Corps an additional 10 years was spent with the Navy including several full deployments on Aircraft Carriers.

Most Navy that I know that went through boot at the Great Lakes received marksmanship training with .22s. However, if you think about it depending on a Navy NEC many Navy personnel go on to intense marksmanship and physical training like the Seals. I also know in Nam the Corpsman were among my best friends.
While most Navy will never fire a rifle in combat there are those who rely on their rifle or pistol as much as any Marine does.

Ron

 

[RetiredUSNChief]

What Reloadron said!

The Navy needs are different, in general, from the Marine needs when it comes to firearms.

Those whose NEC require it do get more training. Those who may have to carry arms as a watchstander will generally get some form of minimal training as well.

But as a rule, there isn't the infantryman's need to be proficient with a rifle to the extent that the Marines require.




And for what it's worth...I didn't get to shoot at all when I went through boot camp in Great Lakes in 1985.

 

[acdodd]

I worked with a Marine in the EA6 ECM shop.
The Commandant of the Marine Corps came to the base.
He actually came to our shop and talked to the SSgt.
Ask him what he shot last time at the range.
SSgt told him he had not shot since boot.
Needless to say the Commandant was not pleased.
Every Marine on base spent a lot of days at the range.

I understand that the USMC has a very different job than your everyday run of the mill squid but I never understood why we even went to the range.
An hour of lecture and then to the qualification was a waste of everyone's time.
All tho the Marine DIs did seem to take a perverse pleasure in it.

 

[herrwalther]

You do realize the irons can't be used through an ACOG anyway and if it was mounted further forward you couldn't see through it due to short eye relief right? Any magnified optic has to be taken off to use the BUIS, so they were mounting them the only way possible.

I do know this. My point was the irons should be zeroed before putting on the ACOG to get the benefit out of both. What ends up happening is once the ACOG is on, not many want to take it off to zero the iron sights. The BUIS are useful if the ACOG breaks, have only seen that happen once with a minor crack on the eyepiece over the reticle.

 

[HorseSoldier]

So I just graduated boot camp and was rather surprised about the rifle qual. I wasn't expecting us to use the RCO on our M16's. Now I am use to shooting old world rifles (Mausers, Springfields, M1s ect) so before I went to boot I was expecting us to use iron sights. I wish we would have used iron sights because it would have made earning that expert badge a lot more challenging. Anyway was just wandering what you guys though and what any other Devil Dogs though about it. Any responses would be appreciated.

Is the rifle qual training how you fight or an exercise in ego?

 

[Reloadron]

Is the rifle qual training how you fight or an exercise in ego?

Neither, an exercise in self discipline.

Ron

 

[strambo]

Qualifications are not training, they are just a measure of marksmanship skill and highly over-rated IMO. The time and ammo should be spent on actual training instead.

 

[crazysccrmd]

Qualifications are not training, they are just a measure of marksmanship skill and highly over-rated IMO. The time and ammo should be spent on actual training instead.

I disagree. Without qualifications how do you evaluate the individual's mastery of the basic fundamentals of marksmanship? They are the baseline on which all further rifle training is built on.

 

[Reloadron]

Qualifications are not training, they are just a measure of marksmanship skill and highly over-rated IMO. The time and ammo should be spent on actual training instead.

For a Marine the "Qualification" is a single day, commonly called "Qual Day" and the Marine's proficiency with his rifle is measured. Prior to qualifying with his rifle the Marine has spent two full weeks (less Qual Day) training with his rifle and developing his marksmanship skills. The first week is all dry fire and mastering the positions. The second week is live fire.

Following that training in boot camp the Marine is expected to re qualify annually. Depending on duty assignments this does not always work out but for many Marines it is the norm. Annual qualifications with rifle and pistol do not involve the same two weeks of training the Marine received in boot camp.

Ron

 

[herrwalther]

Qualifications are not training, they are just a measure of marksmanship skill and highly over-rated IMO. The time and ammo should be spent on actual training instead.

Often the qualification takes 1 or 2 days depending on how many soldiers are being graded. Army qualification is 40 rounds per iteration and the typical soldier who paid attention will qualify the first or second time around. I recall one qualification where we drew 17,000 rounds to qualify about 150 soldiers, most being infantry who passed on the first go. That left a lot of rounds to train with before and after qualification.

 

[kayak-man]

OP

Do they still teach the use of a GI web sling in boot camp, or have they gone to something else?

 

[shootr]

Early 80s Navy. We had a one-day fam and qual using M14s and beat to death S&W .38s. Loved the M14. Had done a fair amount of deer hunting and remember thinking the M14 was like a deer rifle. Fun to shoot and accurate enough for me to shoot Expert. Pistol shooting was not so good that day.

 

[EIB0879]

I went through qualification during Army BCT in 1977 and we shot 80 rounds at targets out to 400 meters as I recall. I shot 67 out of 80 which was high enough for Expert. By the time I went through OCS and IOBC a couple of years later, it was reduced to 40 rounds. I shot Expert then also and the only time I didn't have to qualify with the M-16 was when I was a Company Commander. I carried an M1911 then and was lucky to qualify with it.

 

[entropy]

Often the qualification takes 1 or 2 days depending on how many soldiers are being graded. Army qualification is 40 rounds per iteration and the typical soldier who paid attention will qualify the first or second time around. I recall one qualification where we drew 17,000 rounds to qualify about 150 soldiers, most being infantry who passed on the first go. That left a lot of rounds to train with before and after qualification.

I, too enjoying training with the leftover rounds from our Quals. I was the one who ordered them, so I always made sure I had plenty of rounds to train with. I did something similar to the "Quick Kill" some of you have mentioned. (Must have dropped it by '86, when I was in Basic) I'd start with the rifle at port arms, and 'scan my sector'; the rifle would only come up when I saw the silhouette popping up. I'd miss the 300m one more often that not, but I'd tag the rest readily. I only would take head shots on the silhouettes from 150m inward. Had a lot of fun dumping mags and practicing changes at the end of each session.

 

[loose noose]

In 1966 USMC qualified with the M-14, man I loved that rifle, in 1967 we were ordered to the armory in ChuLai, and issued the M-16, and sent to a makeshift range, and kind of taught to shoot the "Mattel Shooting Shell". Thank God I finally got the hang of it, but I truly missed my M-14. Note I shot expert with (M-14) it, and got the wreath, expert shooting badge. I never shot expert with the M-16, the best I ever did was sharpshooter.

However, today I could probably shoot a bit better with the new optics they have.

 

[CoalTrain49]

OK let me tell all you Marines about my rifle qualification course in the Navy.
They loaded us up on buses and drove us to the Marine rifle range where we were met by a bunch of screaming DIs.
They gave us about an hour of lecture then to the firing line we went.
We were all given old worn out Springfields.
Shot at 200 yd. I don't think anyone qualified.
I sure as hell didn't.
Then a Di took 10 of us to the pistol range.
He put a .45 in our hand and never let go of the hand.
Told us to shoot till it went click.
No targets just a berm.
He looked at the other Di and said yep typical squids none qualified.
Then he took us to a table and let us load mags for the next 4 hours.
It's no wonder we used to sit and watch the grunts run to and from the beach with buckets of sand and yell crap at them.
Boot camp 1970 in San Diego. God I hated that place.

I went through Navy boot camp in San Diego in 67. We were all loaded on buses for a day trip to the range. We had about 4 hours of instruction and live fire with M1's. I think one guy in our company qualified on a 300 m target. That didn't really matter because I never saw another M1 while I was in the Navy. I stood plenty of watches with a 1911 but never had any training with one. I think that is SOP.

These days I shoot irons at 25, 50 and 100 yds. I know there are some fantastic sights available but I get a warm glow shooting 3 moa with irons.

I learned to shoot when I was 12. Shot my first deer in AZ when I was 14. The old timers can still shoot irons but it's almost a lost art.

 

[SSN Vet]

As late as 2006 USMC boot camp quals were done with iron sights and the ACOG was less available to marines than it was in the army.

USMC ACOGs have a Tritium reticle and use no batteries and are extremely reliable.

A detachable carry handle with iron sights is standard issue, but oddly, training and quals are not done with iron sights.

This from my co-worker (yelling over the cubicle to me now) who was a USMC marksmanship coach and optics technician, who was discharged from the USMCR in 2011.