Mark 23 vs The custom built 1911s

[el Godfather]

Dear THR:
Would like to hear your views in pitching Mark23 against the fine custom made 1911s for the following:

Accuracy

Durability

Reliability

And I believe in each of the departments Mark23 will come on the top. Some very expensive and fine 1911s 'might' go toe to toe with Mk23 in accuracy.

Thanks.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

It would be hard to best a Mk23 in any category save concealability and maybe price. It's really too large to carry; a masochist could carry it OWB but I can't see how any smaller than Andre the Giant could carry IWB. For the bulk though it's really not all that heavy, and it balances and points well.

I don't have much experience with 1911s that cost more than $2k. I got a chance to fondle some Wilsons and some Les Baers at the LGS, and now I can see why they command the prices to they. They're immaculate, well finished and slick as snot on a doorknob. But like a Rolex they're as much jewelry as tool IMO.

 

[JTQ]

The MK23 is probably a fine handgun, but as mentioned it is really too big. I consider it a novelty gun, much like a Desert Eagle, or an S&W X-Frame. Sure, there are some people that can put those guns to use, but for me at least, I have no practical use for them.

The USP or HK45 are much more practical for the typical user, but even in their more manageable size, they still seem a little crude compared to a 1911.

 

[tarosean]

I consider it a novelty gun, much like a Desert Eagle, or an S&W X-Frame.

Least those come in differing calibers while the H&K offers absolutely nothing...

 

[1911 guy]

In my own opinion, the Mk 23 was designed with one thing in mind, didn't do that one thing significantly better than anything else and got popular only because it was used a bit by NSWG.

 

[cslinger]

From what I read even those NSWG guys didn't care for them all that much and preferred taking a p226 or even stuff like glock 19s and smith revolvers. I think the hk45c or uspc made a whole lot more sense.

I love the cool factor of the mark 23, but part of me feels like it should be belt fed.

 

[tuj]

show me an NRA bullseye competition that someone won with a Mk23.

No? Because they have almost all been won with custom 1911's.

The MK 23 is considered a match grade pistol,[5] and is capable of making a 2-inch (51 mm) group at 25 metres (27 yd),

That's not match grade to me. Les Baer offers a reasonably priced gun that will do 1.5" groups at 50 yards with a full backing if it doesn't.

 

[Combat Engineer]

"...your views in pitching Mark23 against the fine custom made 1911s for the following:

Accuracy...Durability...Reliability..."

Some 1911 favorites are made by Ed Brown, Guncrafter, Nighthawk, Republic Forge, and Wilson Combat. They shoot the same 45ACP cartridge, (and others too, from 9mm to .50 cal.)

Whereas the Mk 23 was designed as an offensive combat handgun, it does not have the proven offensive combat history of the 1911.

Accuracy favors the 1911.

Durability, the 1911 has been doing just fine for over a century, in 2111 it will still be around, the jury's still out on the Mk 23.

Reliability, "the fine custom made 1911s" are reliable.

Given the choice of CCW or military duty, the Mk 23 is just too large, too cumbersome, whereas the flexible 1911 can, and does fulfill either role.

The Mk 23 may be best suited for the range.

 

[C0untZer0]

The only area where I think the Mark 23 has an advantage is that it was built to eat a steady diet of +P ammo.

Over the long run I think you will see wear and tear and even breakage feeding your custom 1911s +P ammo day in and day out.

I really like Winchester's 230gr .45 AUTO, Ranger "T" Series RA45TP. Fifteen inches of penetration in the 4-layer denim protocol with expansion of .78"

So for someone who can handle a gun as big and as heavy as the Mark 23, it makes a nice night stand gun and you can practice with the ammo you have it loaded with for HD (if you can afford it), because the gun can take it.


http://www.winchester.com/SiteCollectionDocuments/flash-SWFs/law_bullit.swf

 

[Devonai]

If I wanted to get into the suppressor hobby, I would take a Mk 23 over a 1911, but a USP .45 Tactical (or adding a threaded barrel to the standard) would serve the same purpose, with enough money left over to buy the can.

Otherwise, comparing the Mk 23 to a high-end 1911 is like comparing a Ford F-350 Super Duty to a Maserati, insofar as they are both automobiles.

 

[smalls]

And I believe in each of the departments Mark23 will come on the top. Some very expensive and fine 1911s 'might' go toe to toe with Mk23 in accuracy.

Never shot a Mark 23, but Wiki says it shoots 2" groups at 27 yards. What's Baer's guarantee, again?

 

[burk]

My Kimber 5" Custom Eclipse gave me 1 1/4" groups at 25 yards, and the scary thing is my moded Glock 19 is just as acurrate.

You might be able to make the case with the new HK45 T against a 1911. But to me in almost every catagory a high end 1911 would be a superior gun except magazine capacity. And if your talking combat accuracy, I'd grab a Glock 21 G4 or Smith M & P just as fast.

 

[WVsig]

Les Baer.... Premier is $1905.00 + $ 295.00

Customers can request a "1-1/2” groups at 50 yds.” guarantee!

https://www.lesbaer.com/Premier5.html

Will run 100% IMHO. It will never be the weak link in the chain. I would take it over the HK everytime and the Les Baer is not what I consider a custom 1911. It is an excellent small assembly line hard fitted gun but they are not truly custom. If you push it to a true hard ball bullseye custom the HK23 will not keep pace. IMHO YMMV

 

[Onmilo]

I didn't have $2300 for the Mk23, still don't.
Can't legally own a suppressor in Illinois anyway and that is what and where the MK23 really shines, accurate suppressed shooting.
The MK23 with a can in place still shoots as accurately as many custom "Match" guns.

I didn't have the $2000 for a custom slick as snot 1911.
I can still build a pretty close to the top dogs 1911 anyway and do it for quite a bit less than a pile of hundreds.

I did have $1000 and bought an H&K USP Elite in .45 acp.
The gun is just about the exact same overall size of the H&K MK23 and it is indeed a belt gun.
Specifically it is actually a thigh gun as I carry mine in a Blade Tech thigh holster.
It is, was, and remains the MOST accurate and softest shooting .45 acp handgun I personally have ever owned.

To gain a concept of the size of the Elite and MK23 here is mine above my standard USP 9mm.

 

[el Godfather]

Why 1911's 1-2" accuracy is being boasted about? Pay over 5k and still 1-2"? Mark 23 pins 1911 in accuracy read this http://hk-usa.com/hk-models/mark-23/

While at it read durabbility and reliability as well.

The only place where 1911 head ahead (and those attrubutes werent part of this discussion) is concealability, style and ergonomics for carrying on person. 1911 is great desging but plz be fair when rendering opinion.

 

[WVsig]

Why 1911's 1-2" accuracy is being boasted about? Pay over 5k and still 1-2"? Mark 23 pins 1911 in accuracy read this http://hk-usa.com/hk-models/mark-23/

While at it read durabbility and reliability as well.

The only place where 1911 head ahead (and those attrubutes werent part of this discussion) is concealability, style and ergonomics for carrying on person. 1911 is great desging but plz be fair when rendering opinion.

Customers can request a "1-1/2” groups at 50 yds.” guarantee! $2200 gets you a guaranteed 1.5" group at 50 yards. Does HK offer that?

Not 25 meters which is what the MK23 boasts. Last time I checked 25 meter is about 27 yards. So double that and you are now in an apples to apples comparison to high end 1911s. You want a fair rendering of an opinion then lets compare the guns accuracy at the same distances.

I didn't have $2300 for the Mk23, still don't.
Can't legally own a suppressor in Illinois anyway and that is what and where the MK23 really shines, accurate suppressed shooting.
The MK23 with a can in place still shoots as accurately as many custom "Match" guns.

I agree with this but last time I checked I am not a member of a swat tactical team or a special forces group being sent to kill someone silently in the night. Not to be rude but the biggest appeal of he MK23 is the tactical cool Call of Duty capabilities which don't translate to any kind of shooting that I do. Therefore there is no appeal for me. YMMV

Accuracy A gun like a Baer with a 1/5 guarantee at yards $2200 will beat the MK23.

Durability Both will out live me, you and out children if they are properly maintained and cared for.

Reliability Both will be more reliable than you or I in real world situations in which we use them.

So IMHO a custom or semi custom 1911 can be equal or better in each of your 3 criteria if you choose the right one.

 

[MachIVshooter]

Why 1911's 1-2" accuracy is being boasted about? Pay over 5k and still 1-2"? Mark 23 pins 1911 in accuracy read this http://hk-usa.com/hk-models/mark-23/

While at it read durabbility and reliability as well.

The only place where 1911 head ahead (and those attrubutes werent part of this discussion) is concealability, style and ergonomics for carrying on person. 1911 is great desging but plz be fair when rendering opinion.

Clearly you do not want opinions. You seek a debate, and you have your side chosen. So why post it as a query?

If you like the Mk23 so much (and as frequently as you post about it, there can be no other conclusion), save your pennies and go buy the Desert Eagle-sized 12 shot .45 so you can play operator. Then, when you're all growed up and realize that HK isn't the end-all/be-all of firearms, sell the thing and buy yourself a comfortable, normal sized handgun that isn't popular on account of gamers and HK fanboys, but on its real-world merits.

When I was a kid, I, too, got sucked into the HK lore and hype. Bought my first, a stainless USP .45, at 18. By 25, I had a better grasp on the world of guns and shooting sports. I have no HK products now. The proceeds from their sales got me into guns that actually feel good in the hand and perform every bit as well, if not better.

 

[Phaedrus/69]

True, if you want a toy to play gun games HK is probably not for you. They're serious firearms for serious shooters.

I'd love to have a Mk23! With the rebate they're in the $1500-ish range right now if you can find one. Personally though I'd rather have a USP45 Tactical and the extra money. My USP45 Tactical is probably the best .45 ACP handgun I've ever used, but I'm fortunate that it happens to fit my hand well.

I'm not really much into .45 ACP anymore though. The cost of ammo is too high to shoot the snot out of it the way I'd like. 9mm is a lot more economical for range use. Right now my only .45 is my HK USC carbine.

For CCW I'm really not much of a fan of .45 ACP. Most of the guns I like in that caliber are much larger than I'd prefer to CCW. Typically a 9mm will fit almost twice the amount of rounds in the same size grip. I suppose if an HK45C wound up in my collection though I'd probably get a holster and work it into the rotation.

 

[HexHead]

Can't speak to the Mk 23, but I have an HK45. I don't miss my Nighthawk and have no regrets selling my Python to fund it. After having seven of them, I'm over 1911s.

 

[Zerodefect]

Modern pistols have the ability to be more accurate than a 1911. They're looser, but lock up in the same spot every time. Only a very well done 1911 can also do that. The beauty of modern CNC and design.

I have no doubt the Hk can shoot as well as a 1911. But it's DA/SA trigger holds it back. The accuracy from the 1911 is it's trigger and lock time.

Sorry, but only a hardcore DA/SA fan is going to keep up with the Hk. It's just plain easier to shoot the 1911 trigger.

No one want to risk designing a modern 1911 design with a regular lugged barrel, but such a design would take the 1911 pistols to the next level IMO.

 

[HexHead]

Modern pistols have the ability to be more accurate than a 1911. They're looser, but lock up in the same spot every time. Only a very well done 1911 can also do that. The beauty of modern CNC and design.

I have no doubt the Hk can shoot as well as a 1911. But it's DA/SA trigger holds it back. The accuracy from the 1911 is it's trigger and lock time.

Sorry, but only a hardcore DA/SA fan is going to keep up with the Hk. It's just plain easier to shoot the 1911 trigger.

No one want to risk designing a modern 1911 design with a regular lugged barrel, but such a design would take the 1911 pistols to the next level IMO.

Ken Hackatorn and Larry Vickers would disagree with you about the HK45....

The other major thing is that between the great single action trigger and the inherent accuracy of the gun, I shot it at fifteen yards and I remember being shocked. It shot as well if not better than any custom 1911 I’ve ever shot.

Larry: I’m with Ken. I’d put it up against any semi-custom production gun no problem.

This interview was instrumental in my getting an HK45, and I told Larry so when I took a pistol traing course with him. And the LEM trigger is even better.

http://pistol-training.com/articles/hk45-interview-with-ken-hackathorn-and-larry-vickers

 

[Chuck R.]

Ken Hackatorn and Larry Vickers would disagree with you about the HK45....

This interview was instrumental in my getting an HK45, and I told Larry so when I took a pistol traing course with him. And the LEM trigger is even better.

http://pistol-training.com/articles/hk45-interview-with-ken-hackathorn-and-larry-vickers

Does the LEM trigger shorten the reset?

I've got a HK45T which I've upgraded to match springs, and converted to V9 (SA, no decock) and it's not touching the trigger on my Les Baer. Don't get me wrong, I think the HK45 is an accurate pistol, but between the trigger and sights my Baer Concept V has the edge in accuracy.

Chuck

 

[JTQ]

el Godfather wrote,
Why 1911's 1-2" accuracy is being boasted about? Pay over 5k and still 1-2"? Mark 23 pins 1911 in accuracy read this http://hk-usa.com/hk-models/mark-23/

While at it read durabbility and reliability as well.

The only place where 1911 head ahead (and those attrubutes werent part of this discussion) is concealability, style and ergonomics for carrying on person. 1911 is great desging but plz be fair when rendering opinion.

OK, since we didn't join the forum yesterday, and we've seen your posts a few times over the years, so we are pretty sure we know what your answer to the poll question will be. The answer is always HK, almost regardless of what the question is.

I guess the thing I need to ask is…

1) Why do I (or others for that matter) bother to answer your polls?

2) Why ask a question and have a poll of others thoughts if your mind is already made up?

Merry Christmas. Maybe Santa dropped off a new HK for you.

 

[el Godfather]

vAgunner ... Good post.
What will you day about MK23's tests ran by H&K with hot ammo and firing without cleaning. Can 1911 do that if necessary.

Btw mk23 will also shoot .45 super.

 

[el Godfather]

JtQ its always interesting to know what others think. If i post an argument and someone disagrees with sound reasons I appreciate that and learn from it. Since you dont like my posts its better perhaps you ignore them so they dont upset you.

Thanks for the Christmas wishes I reciprocate. Cant say what you will like in the goodies bag perhaps a Colt Gold Cup?