Market Share: Ruger 480, Smith 500

[munk]

Now that Smith has claimed biggest (and best?&@11) what do you see in the future for the Ruger 480 round?

I think the Ruger round will hang in there, but see the Smith always capturing the guys who want to experience the 'baddest' regardless whether their shooting needs actually require a 500. I also see the 500 as an enormously successful carbine round. ( And think if Smith wants to make money, they should stop selling ridiculous side items-like bicycles one year- and bring out a brush gun for this cartridge. ) One question is going to be if the 500 offers anything not already done well by the 45/70 and a few others. Again, though, the 500 can climb ahead because it's the 'biggest' (diameter, anyway)

I see the Ruger following along, modest sales, but growing.
But maybe I'm wrong: does anyone think the Ruger round will actually fail to survive?


munk

 

[tc300mag1]

I think the ruger will hang in there even though it would have been more intersting if they had done the 475/480 instead the 500 will do well for now i think i cant imagine overall it will be a super longterm seller but im probley wrong .. Neither interest me that much but i do want a 454 in a super redhawk

 

[Jim March]

The 454Casull is a more interesting, useful and flexible (45LC/45LC+P) cartridge than the 480.

 

[munk]

That's probably true, Jim March. What do you think will happen to the Ruger 480?

I love the 45 Colt, but never wanted a 454


The 480 for me is more interesting. If Ruger had chambered the 475 L, or the 50 AE, (with moon clip provision) I would be more interested in them.


munk

 

[Gary H]

I have a Redhawk in .480, but I'm not sure what you mean by interesting. I liked that it shot a heavy bullet and figured that it might make a good bear gun. In other words, the last gun that I shoot before being eaten by the bear. I have a Colt .45, but in the S&W, so it won't make it with heavy loads. The new S&W looks like a real "bear" to carry around. Have a great shoulder holster for the Redhawk and am thinking of moonclips.. now isn't that a laugh. If I haven't done the damage by six, I certainly won't be around to reload. So far I haven't seen a bear, but don't tell my wife.

 

[tex_n_cal]

I bought my .480 before the .500 came out. With factory loads it is approaching all I can tolerate in recoil, without gloves. Hodgdon shows loads for it that drive 370's over 1500 fps, and THAT sports fans, will kill an awful big animal.

Mine shoots pretty accurately, and it's easy to mount a scope without removing the rear sight. The lockup is nice and tight, and the trigger is pretty good, for a Ruger. All in all I like the .480 SRH, and it cost way less than .500's cost.

 

[Marshall]

The .480 Ruger is a great cartridge for hunting and self defense of those critters that roam the wilderness. It's more powerful than the .44 without the kick of the .454. If the .480 was available when I bought my Super Redhawk, I would be the owner of that instead of one in a .44 Magnum. I hope it stays around!

 

[Jim March]

Folks, if I owned an SRH in 454, I'd cut it to about 4" or 5" or so and do most of my shooting/boar hunting/whatever in 45LC (+P for piggies) and maybe set up moons and 45ACP for cheap practice.

ONLY if there was a chance of running into a bear would I load 454s. And then only practice enough to make sure a particular batch is grouping well and printing close enough to point of aim. Then I'd go "oww, that's enough 'o THOSE!" until a bear actually charged me. At which point I wouldn't CARE about the pain.



There's no way I could treat the 480 the same way. There's no "lower-power off-the-shelf practice ammo".

THAT is why the 454 interests me more than the 480. But recall that I'm the type to own very few guns and get max flexibility out of what I have.

What I'm much more likely to ACTUALLY do is score a Ruger SA in 45LC and just live within the limits of what 45LC+P can do. As I have no interest in Alaska near-term the LC+P is all that's needed for the lower 48 IMHO.

 

[munk]

The Smith weighs 72 oz unloaded. That's more than I want to carry in a repeating handgun.

The 454 is most versatile.

The 480 Ruger SuperRH is lighter than the 44 version. I believe it does what a handgun should do- deliver a large diameter, heavy slug at pressures and velocities that allow a relatively quick recovery from recoil and deliver a substancial blow. I think it's shootable and about all I could ask in power from a handgun. I bet it lasts longer than a SuperRedhawk in 454.

I just wonder if the shooters will feel that way and keep the cartridge alive.


munk

 

[Gary H]

Jim:

Good points. Of course, loading your own is half the fun, for those of us that get little sleep and are busy with other things during the day.

Load your own .480 for:

400gr @ 874fps

435gr @ 1118fps

and tops
370gr @ 1348fps

American Handgunner.. my copy courtesy of a fellow THR member .. has 85 plus loads for the .480.. Commercial loads.. few.

 

[tex_n_cal]

www.hodgdon.com and go to the pistol data section and look up max loads for 370 grain bullets - they show Lil'Gun (great powder BTW ) driving them over 1500 fps. That's anything a Casull will do, and you can always load 'em down, too

 

[Hal]

Hmm,
I'm not overly anxious to fiddle around with the "working" end of something that operates in the 60K psi range. (moon clips on a .454).
I'll let you younger and more adventureous pups do the beta on that.

 

[Preacherman]

Actually, Hal, it's been done... TK Custom (www.moonclips.com) advise:

A real cool Moonclip conversion is the .454 Casull Ruger Super Redhawk, which allows you to use 454 Casull, 45 Colt and 45 ACP all in one conversion.

I know Wild West Guns up in Alaska do this conversion - ask WildAlaska about it (he works there).

 

[Jim March]

Jack Huntington does too. And others.

The Ruger SRH cylinder bore pattern is identical to an N-Frame S&W. So S&W N-Frame 45ACP moon clips work in the SRH45LC or 454 with minor mods.

This is also why the SRH454 eats out of S&W model 29-compatible speedloaders.

 

[munk]

This thread has about become a 454 Casul vs Ruger 480.

If I'm going to shell out over 500 bucks for a big bore, I'd like to know it's going to be around in 20 years.

I have my share of orphans- having just sold a Wesson 375 Supermag, and owing three .41's btw- does anyone remember the Willey Clapp article not so long ago about getting rid of our dead weight calbres, among them the 41? The 41 seems to have maintained a steady following.

I'd like to know if any of you seriously think the 454 will push the Ruger round into nonexsitence.


munk

 

[munk]

Postcript: Jim March, this one's for you:

You wrote why the 454 Casul was better and more versatile than the 480 Ruger. I think you are mostly correct, but thought I'd write the other point of view

1. The Casul is a 45. The Ruger 480 is a .475 That matters in not only frontal diameter and the physics of impact presentation, it also matters because I don't want another 45, I want something different, and so do other people who buy guns.

2. The Casul is great at what it does, but does one need what it does- as you stated for the lower 48 you did not?

3. The Casul is the legitimate attempt to stick a truncated rifle round in a handgun- a Howda pistol. Some of us do not want rifle rounds in handguns. The pressure the Casul operates at is harsh on shooters and weapons. Ask John Taffin.

4. The Casul is more versatile- there are lots of 45 Colt loads for defense and everyday use, as well as some harder to find warmed up commerical loads. That is true- but it is also true Freedom Arms suggests getting another cylinder if you are going to use 45 Colt, or cleaning the Casul cylinder throroughly each time after use with 45 Colt- if you intend to use 454 ammunition. Because grime fills before the chamber mouths with the shorter case. Also- shorter cartridges in longer chambers are not known for as good as accuracy as using the parent round. You don't shoot 38 target in a 357 mag chamber. And what would be the long term effect of using shorter rounds in a longer chamber- you'd erode the edges of the chamber mouths, wouldn't you?
What I would probably do is use the Casul case for all my loads; but how then would that be any different than handloading for the Ruger 480?

I don't think these points overwhelm the logic of the Casul 454. It has greater sectional density and BC, for what it's worth in a handgun cartridge. It has a greater top end in power.

We get left with this question: How much does the quicker shootability of the 480 and greater diameter weigh against the superior power of the Casul? And: how much difference between the two in actual performance is there- particularly in a defensive (the bear, of course) situation?

There's enough reason for the 480 to exist.


munk

 

[tc300mag1]

I want both no i dont think it will push the 480 into retirement early the 41 mag has been around for years even though it was not the big hit the 357 or 44 was.. but the 41 is a nice shooting gun im always looking for anther blackhawk to buy in 41

 

[munk]

that's sorta what happened with me and the 44- I finally owned 41's and a 44.


munk

 

[Hal]

Jim - Preacherman,
Yep. I know it's been done. (moonies).
All I'm saying is the line forms in front of me for em.

Pretty much a moot point for me anyhow since I reload.

 

[Jim March]

But Munk, two leeeeetle problems:

1) On the Ruger SRH, 480 speedloaders don't exist. In 454 and the same gun, S&W N-Frame 44Mag speedloaders work. That's without even getting into optional moons.

2) On anything ELSE (5-shot SA from Freedom Arms, BFR or a custom Ruger) the 475Linebaugh makes more sense than the 480! Everything you've said about the 480 applies even moreso to the 475 - same bore, but Linebaugh set the case up longer for less pressure at the same power level and more power on tap as desired. The 480 is a "special" to the 475's "Magnum".

So the 480's peak practicality is limited to ONE GUN. And on THAT gun, while the 454 does have it's issues it also has speedloaders, available moons and much greater flexibility for the non-handloader.

Is the 480 an endangered species? Well ya. The only good news is that you'll be able to shorten 475L brass and still handload for it some dark day down the road.

 

[munk]

That's pretty grim, Jim.
But what is all this talk of moonclips:

you mean for all the guys who buy a hunting arm, heavy and long, who want to shoot 45 acp through it instead and Wear Out the Edges of the Chamber Mouths Early with Poor Accuracy? I don't think so.

There may be 12 of you here wanting to do that, but I don't think most people buy a Ruger Super Redhawk or Freedom arms revolver to do that.

The Ruger 480 shoots like any other magnum. That's a plus. It has six shots. It delivers a heavier slug, with greater frontal diameter and more power than the 44- that's a plus. As Waters used to say frequently about one cartridge or anther compared unfavorably to some super behemouth- Thats all that should be asked of it.

As for it not being a 475 - I wish. But I'm talking about what is.

lemme ask you a question- you're up on this stuff- (not that it matters now since Ruger has made its decision) How much money would it have cost Ruger to put a larger diameter cylinder, longer, and retime and remake the neccesary parts, and put a 475 Linebaugh in one of their revolvers?

If they'd made a 45 colt with tight chambers we wouldn't have a 454 today.

Why in heck would you buy a 454 if you're not going to use 454 brass in it? That makes little sense for an accuracy buff like you. What do you tell yourself- that this was 'versatile' and are happy bullets travel downrange- who needs accuracy?

Have you forgotten the chore of scrubbing the inside chamber of a 357 that has had mostly 38's shot through it?
Speedloaders for a heavy hunting arm? For the Bear that waits patiently? For the squad of badguys rushing your living room? That's not versatility.

The 'versatility' argument falls flat, and the power argument then is answered by whatever cartridge that comes along with the most power. To me- a good cartridge is not decided by power alone. The Smith 500 must be the best by that measure. Frankly, if you want versatility, I could see having a moon clip to shoot the 50 Action express through the 500 before I would bother shooting the 45 acp through the 454 .

is there much better than a fun gun debate??

yours,
munk

 

[Jim March]

Upping the cylinder and/or frame dimensions would *definately* have been a production-cost nightmare, esp. for such a relatively small market segment (handcannons in *general* are niche).

-----------------

With a stainless gun, cleaning the "38special crud ring" out of 357 cylinder bores isn't THAT big a deal, is it? I've done it often enough. 45LC in 454 chambers shouldn't be any worse.

The alternative is to reload. I for one just don't have the space for a bench setup...hand-loader mebbe but...isn't that a pain in the ?????

As to speedloaders...Weshoot2 had a blast with his 45LC Redhawk I think in competition once he realized it could eat out of 44Mag speeloaders (rim diameter is the same, so I guessed and told him to try it...sure enough, it worked). If you have a 454C SRH and it shoots well, why not do the same thing? For that matter, in full-on 454 it'd make a good Metallic Silluette gun with a good Bowen or Reeder steel rear sight. Or bowling pins . Whatever. Some of us get a LOT of uses out of a very limited stable of bangthings.

Granted, accuracy with ACPs will be iffy . You'll have freebore effect from hell. But what's this "screw up the chamber mouths" thing? I find it hard to believe a modern steel will ding from shell edges? 'Specially this Ruger "supersteel" on the 454s and 480s.

 

[munk]

Jim; I had a lot of kid stuff going on here while I wrote and mispoke of speedloaders and moonclips- I've edited, but see by your post you knew what I meant.


munk

 

[munk]

Ok- screw up chamber mouths- you have a bullet starting well back of the narrowing of the mouth and it's flying though open space, trying to deform to fill the gap. It may turn, be lop sided, and hit the mouth at an angle- that is rough on the chamber mouth and terrible for accuracy.

I'd think one reason you're not imagining much damage is because we've never heard of much. Why? Because no one consistantly shoot little rounds through a big chambers enough to find out!!

Maybe someone will make a speedloader for the 480. But so what? That's not going to change most peoples intended use of the arm.

munk

 

[munk]

Jim- if you don't reload, then this discussion is over and I concede this easily- get the 454, without question!!! If you like to shoot a lot. And if you are only going to buy one gun.

On the other hand, even folks who don't reload may have a 357 or 45 acp they shoot for fun with, and just want a large bore hunting revolver without a lot of punishment- get the 480.




munk