Marlin Firearms, Current Affairs

[cottswald]

Thought I’d share a couple of things gleaned from Rifle Sporting Firearms Journal, in an article entitled The State of Marlin Firearms by Brian Pearce, January 2012 issue. For some, much of this information will not be new. But in light of all the rumors and speculation that’s been going around, I thought some information from a seemingly reputable source might be useful. The author starts by pointing out that the move from New Haven, CT to Ilion, NY in 2010, has among other things involved conversion to CNC tooling.

In short, CNC (computer numerical control) involves computer generated automation as opposed to manually operated handwheels, levers, etc. Apparently, CNC has become the main staple for the production of numerous items ranging from automobiles to bobby pins, and is considered essential for a company to compete in today’s market. Most production firearm companies have either converted to or are in the process of implementing CNC machinery, apparently Marlin was trailing the field.

Also according to the article, Marlin was using “drawings dating back 60-plus years”, and “old world tooling, some literally being a century old”. Not surprising he goes on to say ”Marlin was building quality forged receivers, parts and cut-rifled barrels. Unfortunately, manufacturing methods were labor intensive and thus expensive”.

A couple additional quotes from the article:

“Cataloged items being temporarily discontinued include, most stainless steel leverguns, all “cowboy” models, the SBL series, and others. These models will return as soon as production has the capacity and are not discontinued on a long-term basis”.

“The most popular variations of leverguns, autoloading and bolt-action rimfire rifles and the excellent Model 39A, which are in the highest demand or have the greatest volume, are still being manufactured at this time and as fast as the plant can produce them”.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

Yeah, it's funny how a company thats been producing one of the highest quality lever guns on the planet seemingly can't produce that same quality product without the aid of CNC according to the bean counters. Is hand controlling slower? Yes. Is it more quality assured? Hell yes it is! You take a quality machinist using hand controlled machines and they can "feel" if that tool is getting the least bit dull. You take your average monkey that runs CNC machines for minimum wage and you will get what you pay for. JUNK!!

Just another example of a great company, that provided a high quality product, getting raped by the bean counting corporations.

 

[Onmilo]

CNC translates to fewer people producing more parts at a faster rate.
CNC quality control can be held, all military weapons are made on CNC.

What CNC does mean is more stuff faster and cheaper but that doesn't mean the savings will be passed on to the consumer, new CNC equipment and tooling is expensive and they will base their new pricing on that fact to pay for it, dime on a dollar the price won't come down after they pay for the machinery either so once that outlay is covered most of the price becomes pure profit.

Anybody who has ever hand loaded/reloaded ammunition will understand what I am saying.

What Marlin found out by moving is that they lost the skilled workforce they had and there aren't enough of the same skill level in the area they set up in to operate the machinery they were using.

From what I have read and heard, Marlin plans to be back to full production schedules by March of 2012.

 

[El Mariachi]

I have a younger acquaintence who was on his best day a terrible amateur finish carpenter. A few years ago he got a hold of some money and bought himself a pretty well equipped cabinet shop-----complete with a state of the art CNC mill. But to this day he can't operate it himself, and only has learned this from it;

'All I need to do, Rick, is to stuff a tree in this end, and five minutes later a kitchen chair will come out on that end'.

Brilliant......

 

[solvability]

Today I took my 1895 in 45-70 to the range and had a great time getting ready for a Deer hunt - mine is several years old and clearly made to a high standard - love the gun.

I hope Marlin recovers.

 

[JohnBT]

"all military weapons are made on CNC"

Maybe those machines are operated by folks who know which end of a gun the bullet comes out of. People have been building guns for how long and Marlin forgot how to build guns that work? They couldn't find people to operate 60-year-old machinery? Jeez, call AARP or something. The only word that comes to mind when I think about what they've done is fools.

John
Proud owner of a Marlin Mountie for almost 50 years.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

CNC translates to fewer people producing more parts at a faster rate.
CNC quality control can be held, all military weapons are made on CNC.

Hate to tell you this Onmilo, but just because it is up to military standards, does not in ANY way mean it is up to MY standards. I saw more crap actions in the military than anywhere else in the world my friend. The only firearms I would carry are ones that were reworks by the Marine Arsenal smiths.

Yes quality control CAN be held but more often than not, it ISN'T. They fire or force retire all the "experienced" people and hire the cheapest labor they can get. Mostly people that wouldn't know how to use a "Mic" any more than they could perform brain surgery. Just how can you "retain quality control" when you have morons on the floor with no experience and were hired for cheap? You simply can't.

 

[oneounceload]

So they go back to hand-building everything and their guns are priced at 5X what their competitors' guns sell for - and they are out of business in 1 year

 

[Onmilo]

Well let's see.
I have been a machinist for nearly thirty years and now run CNC machinery.
There are no "Morons" on the floor I work on.

I think you may be mixing up button pushers with machinists and that is the problem Marlin appeared to encounter.
They had skilled machinists used to working manual gang machinery and the new location has a workforce more in tune with modern CNC equipment.

That doesn't imply the workforce are morons, they are simply trained in a newer technology.

 

[Dmitri Popov]

Sometimes quality is worth the extra money.
A computer can never compete with a skilled machinist when it comes to quality, quantity yes, but not quality.

 

[Freedom_fighter_in_IL]

That doesn't imply the workforce are morons, they are simply trained in a newer technology.

And therein lies the problem, they aren't hiring skilled operators OBVIOUSLY since the quality of production has been extremely poor since moving the operation. It's very evident that the move did not include skilled operators but did include the "button pushers".

Popov, with a skilled machinist at the helm, a CNC can deliver very precise parts quite easily and efficiently I will give on that. But without operation and quality control by someone that actually knows what they are doing, you are peeing in the wind. Hopefully they will pull their heads out of lower orifice and realize that their sales are in the tank because the consumer isn't going to part with hundreds of dollars on a sub par firearm.

 

[Ridgerunner665]

There is a lot in that article that just isn't true....and a former Marlin employee has corresponded with the magazine about it, and received a reply...and is waiting to see how they address the issue.

You can find the email that was sent on Marlin Owners forum...in the section called "Marlin Rant forum"

Post #34...
http://www.marlinowners.com/forum/m...marlin-firearms-article-rifle-magazine-4.html

The replies he received are on the next page.

 

[stsimons]

Its sad to see what FGI has done to Marlin. They had a well made product with an excellent reputation, but maybe not the biggest profit margin. FGI is trying to tun them into cookie cutter crap with a huge profit margin. You think a new CNC Marlin is going to be cheaper? Nope.

 

[DeMilled]

Sometimes quality is worth the extra money.
A computer can never compete with a skilled machinist when it comes to quality, quantity yes, but not quality.

I agree 100%.

The nation as a whole is suffering from a very simple problem right now.
The old guys, you guy have been speaking of, are retiring. There are not enough young
guys taking their place.

I am 33 and all my peers want to be tech geeks and button pushers. No one wants to be skilled labor these days.

Welding companies are always looking for guys who can perform the upper tier welding because it's another industry where all the old welders are retired. No one has stepped in to fill their shoes.

 

[ApacheCoTodd]

So... we're in the "pre 64" days for Marlin? good for them in still making a go in the good ol' US of A - well, New York anyhow...

 

[jwsracin]

i'll still buy marlin, yea i'll probably look for the older guns first, but it will always be an american made gun for me and as far as lever guns go thats about the only option you've got!- in a new gun that is

 

[shootr]

Well -- I've got mine!

Around here, there are always used Marlins in the rack for fair prices.

 

[x_wrench]

unfortunately, bean counter now run the majority of companies in this country. quality is way down on the list of importance, and profit is the number one thing ceo's are concerned with. everything else is way down on the list. the step from profit, to the next most important item (which is the managements salary) is at least three fold. automated machinery is not a problem. the problem is that bean counters, and ceo's think that those machines can replace qualified, experienced gunsmiths and gunmakers all together. and they can get the job done with high school kids that they can pay 1/4th the salary to.

 

[Sheepdog1968]

I must have gotten one of the last 1895 SBLs out there before they stopped production. It had issues (feeding ammo, crooked sights, etc & others which I have forgotten). I made the decision to send it to a gunsmith known for lever action work to have it fixed as I have seen complaints from those sending things back to Remington that they didn't fix it. Mostly I want it fixed. Once I get it back (was likely going to take 6+ months due to smiths backlog of work), I hope to write to Remington's board of directors to see if they will pick up some of the costs to fix the factory defects. I'm not sure what they will do. My assumption is that I will get nothing back. Mostly I just want a good smooth rifle and I went in eyes wide open when I purchase it so I was disappointed by the initial quality but not surprised.

 

[curtix]

Its really supply and demand. I am sure they could keep making hand made and skip the CNC process. But that would be the end of them. Price matters!. And in then end I would say most good buyers care about price. Aside from that there is nothing wrong with CNC. It's really amazing what a good CNC machine can turn out with repetition. As long as you have a good inspection process in place its a great upgrade.

 

[CaliCoastie]

i have many rifles from marlin(true marlin) not the new remingtonings, i mean marlins. when you read the article and they talk about giving people retirement and settlement options that was for a small percentage of the workers, most were just fired.
I have seen many of the new marlins and a friend of mine bought a new one even after i told him to find one used....its now back at marlin getting fixed, he didnt even get a chance to shoot one round out of it. it may be that things will get better, it would be hard to go lower.
As for price matters..... marlin was consistantly truning a profit year in and out at the old location working by hand, one wonders if remington figured they could fire everyone, buy new machines get rid of people who had senioraty, pickup cheap unskilled (for the most part) labor and make money left and right? dont know but....Im always on the lookout for a 50/60's marlin.

 

[JohnBT]

The end of them? They're dead in the water now and paying interest on the loan out their pocket.

Maybe the old Marlin company wasn't all that profitable, I don't know. But how profitable can the new Rem-Marlin be when they borrowed, what, $41 million to buy the company and now the gun-buying world has cursed them and run away from their products? The products they're still making anyway.

Dang it, if they wanted to build cheap guns with computer-controlled machines wouldn't it have been easier and cheaper to contract with Henry to build re-badged guns for them?

John

 

[heeler]

Well I for one am happy my old Marlin 336 was made in 1981 and the one I bought for my brother as a Christmas gift this year was made in 1976.
Poor Marlin.

 

[wingman]

I am 33 and all my peers want to be tech geeks and button pushers. No one wants to be skilled labor these days.

In the 80's I worked as a quality control tech.(not firearms) at the time the company was hiring a "new breed" of engineers I rejected products that were even slightly our of spec. I had a new engineer tell me "I don't care if product is good or in spec simply want it out the door" My response it will come back to us his answer perhaps maybe yes maybe no I will take the gamble, I still refused he simply waited until another shift tech came on ran the test again and shipped the product.

Greed, high gain fast profit over quality huge problem for American manufacturing IMO, difficult to train and build craftsman in that type of environment, we have the good people but they need time to do the job and more time = less profit.

 

[buckhorn_cortez]

I coudn't disagree more with the idea that CNC = low quality. I used to own a machine shop and there are many parts we made that could not be made without using CNC.

When you get into 4 and 5 axes work, with the part / tool movement being simultaneous - there is no way a manual machine and a machinist - no matter how talented or highly trained - could make the part.

As for the machinist being able to "feel" the tool getting dull and changing the tool - a good CNC operator closely monitors the chips coming off of the tool and the number of parts made with the tool. He will adjust the feed rates as required as the tool dulls, and will also change the tool when either the chip stream is not correct or the tool has made a specific number of parts.

Feeling the tool isn't the only method of judging tool condition and changing the tool when needed.

If Remington / Marlin does not have a formal QC program - I'd be surprised. Most companies today use the Six Sigma approach and will often QC parts as they come off of a machine during the parts run. Why? Because they don't want an entire batch to be rejected and have to be remade. The complaints I see about the Marlin products have little to do with how the parts are manufactured, but in how they're assembled and what's allowed to be shipped.

That is NOT a CNC quality problem, that's a corporate commitment to product quality problem.

I have several friends who operate CNC's for companies that make aerospace parts, gadgets for the national laboratories, and do machine work for a number of other high-end clients where part tolerances and work quality are paramount as people's lives, in many cases, are literally riding on the parts. You can bet your life on the fact that the parts are QC'd prior to shipment, and also QC'd by the client upon parts receipt. In many cases, there are routers (manufacturing process log sheets) that go with the each part and are delivered with the part.

Gun manufacturing doesn't require quite that level or expense in manufacturing because gun making is a low tech industry - really. In 1982, I toured the Colt Hartford facility, and the Ruger Southport, CT facility. I was surprised at the lack of CNC machines and the reliance on a lot of handwork.

In 1982 the manufacturing approach made little sense other than taking capital investment costs in machine tools to $0, and it makes even less sense today as the CNC machine tools are far more sophisticated, accurate, and cost effective. They are HOW you keep the product cost as reasonable as possible - and product costs seem to be one of the universal complaints across all of the gun forums.

The problem isn't the manufacturing process, it's the corporate culture of the company making the product.