Martial Arts School Help

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You also learn kicking is for movies
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certain types of kicking yes. I would use kicks very sparringly in a street fight and the types of kicks I'd use are not back spin kicks, axe kicks, cresent kicks. I agree that stuff is for the movies (I dont think they are much value in the ring either to be honest). To state that kicks have no value is over stating it. I can think of several instances where a kick is very usefull, when a guy is trying to stand back up for example. That is a prime moment for a kick and a kick will typically speaking work much better than a punch. Also as Bas says in the link above, a kick to the groin is very effective. Bas is a former King of Pancrase, former UFC heavyweight Champion, worked in some clubs known for being rowdy and ruff and is otherwise well known for his street fights. When I had the chance to train with him some one asked him what he would do in a street fight, "I'd kick him in the nuts as hard as I could" was his response.

The big advantage I give thai boxing over western boxing is that you'll learn knees, elbows and clinch work. If you don't, find a real thai boxing gym. Clinching pretty much neutralizes boxing. Clinch skills are very very useful. A boxer will have no problems out striking your average joe. Boxing is a very viable option I just think thai boxing gives you a more versital skill set. I know many people fervently disagree with my next statement but I also believe that thai boxing is simply a better way to fight than boxing and all other things being equal is vastly superior. I'll note there are many people who disagree and take the opposite view. I have my reasoning for thinking they are wrong and I am sure they have theres. If it is of interest to anyone I can expound. Boxing is definately in my top five of usefull skills however.

One of my great fears, justified by watching a Gracie practice, is to run into someone with serious grappling skills.
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I do not look to get into fights. At this point in my life I'll walk away from anything I can even if I look like a B@%&* by doing it. I'm well past the need to look like a tough guy. I also have enough going on in my life I would not risk comprising it for the satisfaction of puncing out some jerk. I'll walk away from anything I can meaning if I find myself in a fight it is probably because I was attacked and it means it is probably a very serious situation. I say that as a preface to my next comment so you will understand my perspective on any street fight I find myself in.

A knife is a very very effective defense agaqinst a choke or the like. It will also land you in jail if you are out looking for trouble and then use it. If you are defending your life from some one who poses a iminent threat to your life that is another matter entirely.
 
Thinking about some of the above reminded me of one of the most valuable assests I believe grappling offers. Control and positioning. If you have good ground skills you can make space, move someone off of you, flip them over and even potetially get back to your feet from underneath them. This ability to make/ maintain space, and often with only ones legs, could allow one to access a weapon. Understanding and practicing wrist control could be very usefull in a knife attack or many other situations To people who undrestand grappling that probably makes sense. I could show it sooo much easier than explain it.

I do believe the more skill sets you have the better. You never know what tool might be best for a given situation but the more tools in your tool box the better the chance you have one that might work. Further when you have an understanding of various skill sets you can see how they can be combined, or where they might overlap etc. There is of course the danger of being so fractured in your training that you lack proficiency in anything. I would rather be very good at one thing than bad at 5. I'll reiterate that I personally believe MT (boxing could be substituted) Wrestling (Judo could be substituted) and BJJ will give people a very good skill set. I would supplement that with quality firearms training. I think that doing so prepares one for very well to defend themselves from an array of possible scenerios.

It makes me think of a story of a general who was trying to prepare a city for immenet attack. He first dug a trench, then mounded the dirt up around the city. On top of the dirt he built a wall. On top of the wall he built towers. He then fortified the towers such that arrows could not easily penetrate into them. He then placed archers in the towers. One moral I have taken from this story is to have a backup plan. If a is not sufficient then there is B and then C etc. I like the idea of layers of defenst. At my home I have layers, deadbolts, alarm, big dog, phone, gun. For fighting I look at it the sameway, striking, clinchwork, Take downs/TD defense, grappling skills, knife and gun. One might be enough but I wouldn't count on it and comboned it is synergistic.
 
Girodin:
LOTS of good stuff. Thai boxing is a young man's sport. It's also one of those arts that isn't easy to learn. Without Dit Dak Chow(SP?) your screwed. The pounding to your shins just takes it's toll. You can't recover quick enough to really train. Thai boxing means full power kicks to makyaras(sp?) pretty much two by fours, with rope around them. Most aren't up to that, so, it's not a great training option.

GOOD kickers are huge. I've trained with Clinton Mosley, Dennis Alexio, Benny the Jet.
I do NOT want to kick with them, and, I was not bad in my prime. Most fight kicks should be sweeps...

While I agree with the multi-skills, most of the famous guys had ONE technique they were REALLY good at. Think that guy with polio in one leg that was world middle weight full contact holder. Everyone knew he had one good leg and, it was coming. They STILL got knocked out by it...
 
Full on fight training in thai boxing can be hard on your body. You have a very valid point that some people may not be upto it, or any training.

Fighting is a physical activity and the fact is being fast strong and well conditioned are very very important factors

I've trained with... Dennis Alexio,
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Before or after he got a lesson in the value of MT, leg kicks specifically, at the hands of Stan the Man?

Thai boxing means full power kicks to makyaras(sp?) pretty much two by fours, with rope around them. Most aren't up to that, so, it's not a great training option.
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Most places they just kick bags, thai pads, and each other these days. That said, yes it hurts like hell when you first start. You will experience serious fatigue and pain if you train hard. That why when thai boxers experience serious pain in the ring they don't really care, or at least they don't let it stop them. If I hit someone in the gut and they double over I typically hit them again harder. That will make some people not want to train but it also teaches the lesson not to show that the body shot hurt you and rest assured that the people who come back do a much better job of not showing next time.

The same things that make MT not for everyone are what make it a superior choice to other training in so many respects. It is what creates and/or developes the needed mindset and fortitude to engage in combat with another person. Admittedly that is not a task for the faint of heart. Yes some people cannot take that, it is also true some people are not up to getting in a fist fight? Watering down the training (permently) wil do nothing to prepare them in those aspects they are lacking it may also do a diservice in that it doesn't make them aware of their limitations. If you cannot stand getting punched in the face and you shell up when it happens then you might want to know that before you get in a fight. If you are not up to train hard why would you be up to fighting someone who is trying their best to seriously hurt you? I can usually watch someone train for a month (and often much less time, like an hour) and know if they will end up being any good or not. This hard training should of course start at and progress at appropriate levels. Even in the begining it is challenging and trying for people though.

Now the other side is pretty clear too. Just because one cannot do everything or get everything out of something do to some limitation doesn't mean they cannot get something, even something very benificial, by working around those limitations.

Nobody should jump into super hard training at anything. Muay Thai is hard but barring serious physical disability most people can work there way into it. I've seen many middle aged people do it and even some fairly obese people. Granted the 60 yr olds I know who train don't bang like the 20 years old but still.

Your point about physical limitations is a very good one, and one that I was not giving due consideration. Grappling may or may not be a more viable choice depending on the exact circumstances. Things that don't work in fighting are never a viable choice, even if they are easier and can readily be participated in. Just don't let people tell you strength and conditioning dont matter in fighting they do, a lot. One obviously should do what is possible to work around their limitations ( I have injuries that affect how I do things now and even proscribe certain things I wish I could do because they work) but being aware of them is probably important too. What you cannot do in training you are very unlikely to be able to do for real. If you are not "fighting" (I use quotes since it will always be some type of aproximation and for good reason) in training you are not learning how to fight. You have to learn by doing think of anything else you've leanred to do, drive a car, shoot a gun, ski, ride a bike, etc.
 
Back to the OP....

There are several things to bear in mind with martial arts.

First, the 'my style is better than yours' urinary Olympiads are a crock. A sample Homo Sapiens has only so many vulnerable spots and attack methods. Ultimately, all serious styles converge. They may stress different attacks and defenses, but the basic arsenal is the same.

That being said, instructor quality is key. Things to look for would include:
1. An instructor who knows his martial lineage. He should be able to trace it back to the founders of that style.
2. An older instructor. As a general rule, it takes 5 years to make 1st dan black belt, an additional 3-5 years for each additional dan.
3. A relatively quiet instructor. The screamers are rarely good teachers.
4. Classes that are not mostly sparring sessions. Sparring is good for tactics, but corrosive of techinque. You need a blend.
5. Little emphasis on tournament sparring. There are some VERY effective techniques that are expressly forbidden in tournament - important stuff like joint attacks, kicks below the belt, etc.
6. Few belt colors. Schools that have more than ~5 colors of belt are trying to sell very small promotions - usually at inflated prices.
7. An instructor who is teaching for the pleasure of teaching, not as a livelihood. There are some instructors who are quite good who teach professionally...but many are out for a quick buck. An instructor who has a full-time job can run things with an eye toward quality of instruction, not quantity of profit.
 
I have not read all the posts yet. So sorry, if I repeat anything.

I have taken Tae Kwon Do for many years.

Like the poster above said, there are BS indicators. I remember one school I came across was BS. The head teacher/owner just walked around a huge gym of 100 so students while his beginner to intermediate teachers taught class. The salesmen were taught to BS new recruits. The school claimed to teach three martial arts at one time. So when you test for black you have three black belts if my memory is correct. Most schools are not this bad. But it just showes what is out there. Some who see the business side above everything else.

What I have noticed also about some schools is that they all pretty much go over basic kicks and punches quite well. But that is useless unless you have sparring practice almost everyday. Forms have there place, but you need to sparr. Also, some schools sometimes because they are mainly too busy training beginners never spend time on gun defense or knife defense or denfense against grabbing.
There are many good schools out there. When you visit,you have to read between the lines, I guess. And do your shopping.

Some debating on the use of kicks.
I have relatively short arms. But since I bicycle and run. I can't ignore my stronger legs that I could use to push or injure someone. I've even considered steel toes. I try to keep my kicks in condition.
 
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I will hold my professional opinions on this school because I have not viewed it personally (in person). How many of us genuine, professionally certified martial arts instructors have ever heard of a "Doctorate of Martial Arts"?! I have been in various martial arts for around 44 years, and have been a professionally licensed instructor of 3 martial arts for about 30 years. The aforementioned information gives me great pause.

Geno

Read the information in this link: http://www.streetdefense.com/programs.html


ACCREDITED EDUCATIONAL DEGREES IN THE MARTIAL ARTS

Many of the above disciplines may be converted into Martial Arts Educational Degrees by signing up for school based accompanying studies. Applicant candidates must be at least 18 years old. Each program has its own prerequisite study requirements but CLEP life experience may be applicable on a case by case basis. Studies will include book readings, written projects, performance based written and physical testing and evaluations and will end up in a graduation ceremony. All graduates will be receive AWA accredited Diplomas/Degrees in Martial Studies.

BMA Bachelor of Martial Arts
MMA Masters of Martial Arts
DMA Doctorate of Martial Arts


DEGREES OFFERED - accredited by Ateru Worldwide Association

Associate PROGRAMS (through Brown Belt and Black Belt Temp) 2 year degree

MMA Mixed Martial Arts
Ateru Goju-Ryu Karate-Do
Ju-Jitsu
San-Ryu-Do (International San-Ryu-Do Sword System)
CSW Combative Sports Weaponry
Japanese Language Proficiency (Martial Arts Based & Conversational)
CCS-TAC Close combat strategies and Tactical Advantage Curriculum


Bachelor Degrees (Black Belt 1 st Degree through 3 rd Degree) 4 year degree

MMA
Ateru Goju-Ryu Karate-Do
Ju-Jitsu
Martial Arts Business Management
Martial Arts Teaching Certificate
CCS-TAC Close combat strategies and Tactical Advantage Curriculum


MASTERS PROGRAMS (4 th Dan through 6 th Dan) 2-6 year degree

MMA Mixed Martial Arts
Ateru Goju-Ryu Karate-Do
Ateru San Ryu Do


DMA Doctorate of Martial Arts Varies – depends upon thesis and defense of thesis process.

Doctorate of Ateru Goju-Ryu Karate-Do
Doctorate of Ateru San-Ryu-Do
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Sorry. I can't resist this one. Now, if they seek to promote themselves as academics, them so be it. And if the seek to promote themselves as ESL/martial arts instructors, so be it, but get the spelling right. It wouldn't hurt that they get the time correct as well. I did not insert the face. That is due to their clerical error. In most cases, these matters would not bother me. However, when they present themselves as great academics, then I expect it.

SPECIALTY CLASSES

ESL Karate Classes English as a Second Language Karate Class

(Ages 5 – 8) Friday 4pm – 4:30pm

(Ages 9-12) Friday 4:30pm – 5:pm

These two classes will be taught in Japanese and English. Grandmaster Cullen has a 4 Batchelor Degree in Japanese from the University of Findlay and will work on students karate skills while improving their English abilities at the same time. This class is specifically for Japanese/English speaking students.
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rrrruuunnn - If you use steel toes to kick someone, that is assault with a deadly weapon. I've seen a girl stomp on a guy and she had some stiletto high heels or something on, just long and pointy and he had a ugly hole in his shin. Cops came and arrested her with assault with a deadly weapon and hauled her away. I learned alot from some bar room brawls, somethings you can't learn in schools. Sometimes you gotta think dirty and just plain underhanded.

I was at work and had to take down this big ole boy a good 40-50 lbs up on me and a good 4 inches taller, needless to say it was more like struggling to get him to stop trying to smash me. My coworker came over, a good 20 years older than me and by no means yoked or trained. He grabbed the guy with one hand, the guy froze and slowly got up and very stiffly and slowly walked out with many "sorryies" and "yes sirs." When my buddy came back, I asked him what he did. He told me the "Old Five on Two" took me a minute to realize what he meant, then it dawned on me. Hahaha, after that used it a couple times on some tuff thugs, a little awkward at first but it never fails...ever. Hahahaha
 
I understand what you guys are saying when you disagree with my assessment that something is better than nothing.

However, I think you guys have forgotten what it's like to be a beginner.
The most difficult thing to do is to show up the first day, walk in, and start taking part in things when you know nothing.
Going to any school to take this crucial step is a good idea for anyone interested in self defense because it helps them cross a major psychological boundary, lets them get used to working out in a gi or whatever clothing is worn, and gives them a feel for the reality of the school as opposed to whatever sales pitch they were given.
Another side benefit is that of developing an idea of not getting married to a particular instructor like some bad kung-fu movie disciple. It takes some people years to branch out and feel okay about seeking training from other instructors once they begin and progress at a dojo.
I still contend that something is better than nothing for an absolute n00b.
 
Hi Girodin
Dennis Alexio was living in Hawaii, at Diamond Head, promoting one of his first 55 wins. We would box at the Kalakaua Gym, and work on the bags. He wasn't nice. He put his head in the middle of a 7 punch combination I learned from watching Marvin Hagler(I was at 175 at the time), and, Alexio chased me for 15 rounds in a small, soft ring, trying to hit me in the heart. He had to settle for breaking the end of one of my ribs.

Tai Chi is probably THE art, as far as I'm concerned. Do it for awhile, and, you'll be amazed at how it improves balance, focus, and other stuff most people don't believe exists. The forms are basic, and, with practice, it's amazing what happens.

I do like Thai boxing because it at least starts you with your hands in the right place, as does boxing. Guys try and develop the habits of keeping their hands up in a fight, and, it's often what determines if you end up with brain damage or not. Somehow, the concept of going into a school, and, throwing a punch from your waist makes me want to :puke:

Tae Kwan Do sucks for that reason. Great kicks, but, no head kicks, and, defense is not taught protecting the head. Not good.

That said, there are many ways to the same end. Both hard and soft styles
end pretty much at the same place. Finding a REAL, experienced teacher in any of these arts is hard...

By the way, the only Black Belt I ever got was given to me, for one reason: so I could spar with the black belts at that school.

Other then that, I just have a very, very old white belt...
 
This is to the OP, haven't read much of the thread.

I did some martial arts for about 3 years not long ago, would still be doing it but had to stop because of medical problems. Anyway what I learned from that experience is that your choice of school depends on YOU. Schools tend to come in a few varieties, one is the competition school where the instructor is trying to train the next Tae-Kwon-Do champion, another is the new competition school training the next class of MMA Fighters (or UFC if your not familiar), another is the school focused on the STUDENT, and of course some are a mix. Fortunately for me I was in the last category and the instructor was focused on making me better for myself.

The reason I pointed this out is because it seems to me you want to learn self-defense. Remember that in the real world there are no rings, point deductions, or tap-outs, and as such a competitive art isn't always the most effective way to learn self-defense but many will say they are because you "practice on real people" and such statements. I would take this into account were I to begin training again.

Lastly I want to mention GUNS and how they related to my experience. In general in the art I did the #1 rule for being unarmed against an armed opponent was defusing the situation, nothing is worth more than your life. With that in mind we planned to face an armed opponent from a defensive position and did some physical gun disarms but really the only gun disarm we did with intent to use was "be prepared to hand over your wallet, car keys, jewelry, and anything else besides your life (or your wife)."

That is my experience, I hope you can take something of value from it.
 
I not an Alexio fan. He and most of the American kickboxers of his day were very arrogant and didn't even know how little they knew about kickboxing. When they were willing to step up and fight thai boxers they got a lesson. Some learned and embraced the techniques and moved on like the Rufus brothers after Changpeuk Kiasongrit broke his leg with repeated low kicks. Others like Alexio simply never made the mistake of getting in the ring with Stan again he also tried to lie about what broke his leg.. The worst of the lot was guys like Benny the Jet that to this day lie about what happened when they fought thais and ducked them the rest of their careers and stayed out of thailand. I have no respect for Benny for that reason.

Anyways here is a video of Alexio getting what he had comming

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=AH9dDqe4A64
 
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Dennis was NOT a nice guy. I watched him nearly kill a sparring partner, trying to hit the guys nose bone into his brain, and, the guy slid out, wisely, screaming at Dennis. Dennis figured since you got in the ring, he was safe, legally, since you had accepted a situation where bad injuries occured. He deserved the broken leg, many times over.

We had discussions about MMA or whatever. He was doing real well with the grass skirt, fake Hawaiian routine. He was from the Sac/CA area, and no more Hawaiian then I am. However, Hawaii allowed him to promote his own fights, and, he made huge money doing that.
He didn't like the MMA at the time, since he knew his best defense was to kick the Gracie's in the head as they came in, and, at the time, that wasn't allowed.

Wanting to have rules you might do well in is NOT a failing. That's what you do on the street. I have a long list of guys I'm NOT fighting, and, a certain Russian superheavyweight wrestler is at the top, or was.

As for Thai boxing: it's real simple. You either have it genetics wise, or you don't. Shins even with Dit Dak Chow, are either brittle with little padding on top, or, they aren't.

Some have the genetics for leg blocking, some don't. If you don't have it, your in real trouble, and, you should stay out of the ring.

When I wrote about kicking Makawara's, I was thinking about the training I did, and, despite all the right stuff, I just don't have shins that stand up to that kind of pounding.
Dennis did exactly what he was supposed to do with that leg block, and, it STILL broke his leg. That should tell you something. It also tells you Stan did his homework, and, knew the leg was broken prior, and weak. That doesn't make me feel warm and fuzzy about Stan, but, on the otherhand, considering who he was fighting, I'll let it go.

One of my teachers, actually a few of them, did. Shihan Hirano, Douglas Eaton, Clinton Mosley, Tino Temescululo, Charles Halliday, maybe, Andrew Lum, Douglas Eatons' Wing Chun teacher, Ed Parker, who wasn't my teacher, but, we had over for dinner, and those are the ones I remember. Benny was really good, but, he was good with pads, don't remember him using bare legs.

Who was the middle weight with a leg like a baseball bat? Bill Wallace? Some guys legs can take that kind of impact, some can't.

I tried to be a nice guy. I used to spar the Phillipino pros in Hawaii for fun. They never weighed more then 150, and, I would spar, until they tried to knock me out. Then, I'd beat their arms, ala Rocky Marciano, as hard as I could, and, that was pretty hard at the time, until they quit. If the guy was nice, I'd give him a bottle of Dit Dak Chow I'd made for their black and blue forearms...then they were friends for life.

I remember hitting the bags one day. On one side was Milton McCrory. He hit like a girl, compared to me. On the other was a heavyweight sized guy, named Thomas Hearns. He hit, REALLY hit. I would have boxed Milton all day. Was NEVER getting in the ring with Thomas....

Guys in the gym said the hardest hitting guy ever was George Foreman... He would upper cut the bottom of the heaviest bags, and send them skyward. You KNOW how hard an 80 pound bag gets on the bottom, after years of use and settling, but, that's what he'd hit, and send it flying...
 
Well, I scheduled a class or two to test out the school. My first class is today, I'll be doing some BJJ and possibly some MT if I'm not to tired to try it after I get done with the first class. I'll post my initial review later tonight. Wish me luck!
 
I am a certified instructor of an integrated art form, Shaolin Kempo, and recommend any dojo that teaches real self-defense situations with basics and forms (forms in this sense are like fighting tai chi forms). The Shaolin way emphasizes longevity and the development of the individual, and has been combined with Kempo, Okinawan Karate, Mongolian grappling, and American boxing by Grandmaster Fred Villari. His schools are very popular in the Northeast, andhave made big inroads to Florida and California. Currently we are the only two in Texas.

My advice is find an integrated form that also has the discipline of forms and encourages the cultivation of individualized combinations of techniques based on the student's strengths and natural inclinations.

Once you become proficient at empty-handed technique, any weapon you take up can be an effective extension of your focus.
 
I started my martial arts training in 1982 and still train. I do have some general thoughts to share though they really aren't that new after reading the other posts.

1. I reccomend you check out in person and watch classes at three different schools.
2. Whatever school you pick should have a person on person sparing component to it for all the reasons you mentioned.
3a. Kicks are more powerfull but slower. To me, I would avoid or minimizing using them in a real fight as one foot off the gound greatly reduces your balance and you have a much greater chance of falling. Chances are if you are in a fight, you won't know the terrain that well and it will likely be dark or slippery and I would want to minimze my chance of falling. Again, my opinion.
3b. Ground fighting is important to eventually learn but I wouldn't want that to be my first art. Bad people travel in packs like wolves. I would not want to be on the ground with one person and then get kicked to death from his friends.
4. There are a number of schools around that offer some sort of stick fighting (arnis, escrima). If you find a local school that offers it, that would be a great thing. You can almost always find something nearby that can be used as a stick.
5. If your main focus is self defense, Krav Maga and some of the US Military styles focus on the hand to hand fighting and minimize the forms and basics. For learning purely self defense, I think this is an advantage. Yes, the forms contain useful techniques and a way to practice them. Yes, the basics will make you better. However, practicing the actual self defense techniques is the best way to get better at them. Again, my opinion after 27 years of practicing and teaching.
6. Don't forget the value of pepper spray. Much more forgiving than a bullet. Also, I've seen too many stories over the years where someone throws a punch, the other person falls over, hits their head and dies and suddenly you have serious legal issues. Much less likely to happen with pepper spray.

Good luck and welcome to whatever you choose to study.
 
I started mine in the 70's Korean karate, Hop kido, judo and jusitsu. I have black belts in a few. Formadal kicks are side, round house, Thrust front and snap front. You won't be up long so arm and leg bars and choke and neck holds are good things to plractice you only need a couple. Front back. you can also tie someone up with your legs especialy if they puch or knock you down. These leg bars are leg breakers. Ground fighting calls for finger thrust to eyes ebows etc short hard strikes. Do not use MMA or any of these sports as whats best. they have rules. Tell me witch disipline calls for a palm strike to the nose or gouging with fingers. Learn the techniques then fight dirty as hell. If you wan't to know the most important disipline is enderance. Do not fight against the force go with it.


Jim
 
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rrruunn - understandably so, I feel the same way. It's just that the law is very complicated. Of course if a BG or mugger or whoever is trying to kill you and they are armed, you are good. But I've seen alot of bar fights where its usually fistacuffs and when no real weapon is involved buy maybe a steel toe or a bottle, regardless of who started it or who ended it, the "improvised weapon" suddenly becomes a major factor when the law steps in. Not saying that you're always gonna end up screwing the pooch, it depends on the officers, the parties involved. You may be able to place assault charges on them, but they can slap a hefty assault with a deadly weapon charge on you too.

Just clarifying because the average street fight is much more different and complicated from a burglarly or HD/SD. An armed BG with a bat/gun/knife/rock I'd do the same as you, anything at my disposal, you just gotta know which situations you are justified to use those tools when the law is involved.
 
Just finished the first class.

I opted just for BJJ today rather than split my time between two different disciplines. I found it very fun, but I'm not too sure about the amount of information taught to the students. I spent about half an hour doing "shrimps" and "bridges" with rolls and practiced keeping guard and not being bucked off or rolled. After that we went into sparring matches for another half hour, when class ended I opted to stay for a continuing half hour of sparing (no instructors) and learned a fair amount from a much larger (and more experienced) classmate who managed to manhandle me fairly well, but I found it good practice.

I'm heading back Monday for a more diverse training program, if I find it to be all sparing and no instruction, I'll move on to another school. There is a JKD school in the area I'd like to try...
 
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