Massad Ayoob: "Are revolvers still relevant?"

[trackskippy]

Do you?

No, I don't have to. I've got quick, easy access to my gun, from most any position.

And how do you know this?

Seriously, I would like to know.

Because I've tried to do it most of my adult life, and know it's not possible. And to say it is, is disingenuous.

And in this day and cell phone/computer age, it's only exponentially worse.

You may reach a level of heightened awareness, but you will never maintain it, and everyday life just constantly distracts you.

 

[Pat Riot]

No, I don't have to. I've got quick, easy access to my gun, from most any position.



Because I've tried to do it most of my adult life, and know it's not possible. And to say it is, is disingenuous.

And in this day and cell phone/computer age, it's only exponentially worse.

You may reach a level of heightened awareness, but you will never maintain it, and everyday life just constantly distracts you.

I see. I thought maybe you were in some vocation where you interacted with so many people that your studies or observations had led you to these beliefs.

 

[trackskippy]

Ive worked on the ground, in and around the public most of my life, and a fair amount of it in some not so nice inner cities, and places where we had to "try" and do our jobs and constantly pay attention to some of the craziness thats going on around you at the same time. A lot of those places we had to decicate people to just guard our work trucks and equipment while we tried to work.

It all sounds really good to say you can pay attention to everything going on around you, even just 90% of the time. Reality is, you arent paying anywhere even close to that, and still living/dealing with your life.

 

[Tallball]

Pocket carry is great if it's carefully thought out and everything (garment, pocket, gun, holster) fits just right and you practice.

I've been pocket carrying a snub since I was a young man in the late 80's. I've noticed a couple of times recently (snakes) that my LCR is in my hand and drawn without conscious effort on my part.

Pocket carry doesn't work for everyone due to body shape, hand shape, arm length, etc. It can be very effective for some of us, though, and for me a lightweight spurless snub in a cargo pocket works very well.

 

[RainDodger]

People can think anything they want. That's what <used to> make this country great. I know I can draw and hit what I need to hit with my 3" King Cobra. I know it works and I know it will not fail.

 

[Tcruse]

"People tend to have a proclivity towards an object rather than their own skill."

And this is why these discussions of this subject always, always, ALWAYS turn to how much more quickly a semi-auto can be fired and how much more quickly they can be reloaded. Most shooters simply rely on, or plan to rely on volume of fire rather than learning to shoot accurately.

One rarely mentioned yet distinct advantage a revolver has over a semi-auto is they're completely self-contained. But damage, drop or lose your magazine(s) and your semi-auto becomes a really, really slow single shot handgun.

35W

Of course, most carry more than one magazine, and if you have a failure with a wheel gun you most likely will require tools/gunsmith to fix, while most repair of a handgun like a Glock is done without tools.

 

[Tcruse]

Yet another advantage for the revolver. Nothing teaches fundamentals like shooting a DA revolver, and the advantages for reloading to make that shooting more affordable...

There certainly are advantages to semi autos, but those advantages don't reduce the capabilities of a revolver. I enjoy them both, and I'm mightily impressed by the P365xl with a red dot. Very impressed. But the advantages of the 356 don't diminish the capabilities (or reloading advantages) of my M65 in the least.

Yes, probably true, how many citizens will spend the time to master that beast when they get a better groups and more reliable goups with a Sig P320 or Glock 17 in 1/4 the time.

 

[Tcruse]

If you accept the premise that the purpose of a defensive handgun is to simply allow you to break contact with your attacker, that most gunfights are settled with three or fewer rounds, that the .38 was perfectly viable as an effective handgun cartridge for many decades, and that consistently carrying a particular firearm is often dependent on convenience, then an ultra lightweight 5 shot hammerless revolver that fits in virtually any pocket is not only pertinent but even the preferred solution for many under most circumstances. And then there's the comforting feeling of a .44 magnum on your hip when you're walking through the woods....

"break contact with your attacker" - sure but why would you think you would have only ONE attacker and not several?

 

[Tcruse]

I thought context in this thread and what we were discussing was civilian carry and not fighting wars. In that regard I'd agree with you, but would also say then the P365 and the like and subcompacts like the G26 are also "obsolete" for military use. Then I'd take it a step further and would say the the bigger fullsize pistols have become obsolete in modern-day EDC.


That maybe true and I agree with you within a perfect setting. The fact still remains that irregardless of the manufacturer, parts wear and do break. I've been on GlockTalk, the S&W forum, and other popular firearm forums long enough to know that this is the case. It might not happen a lot per capita, but it's still happens. Next, in an altercation where one doesn't have proper grip, the slide stop, mag release, riding the slide, being pushed out of battery, failure to eject or load a new round, limp writing, etc do become valid failure points that aren't an issue with revolvers. The fact still remains that semiautos introduce several more points of failure. There are a whole list of things that must go right in relation to one another else your left holding a paperweight.

Semi-autos are for the most part can be just as reliable as revolvers if the your grip and everything else is perfect as would be more likely in competition, at the range, and during a training class; otherwise, revolvers become much more reliable during a struggle.

"can be just as reliable as revolvers" - more reliable is the norm. Look at the round count on well used Glocks to be in then 50K range is not uncommon.

 

[Rodfac]

Yes, revolvers are still relevant for personal defense. Whether or not the current crop of pistol users are capable of effectively shooting DA revolvers? That's a different question, entirely.

Yep...and perfect practice, makes perfect manipulation. Rod

 

[fastbolt]

Yep...and perfect practice, makes perfect manipulation. Rod

And - hopefully - without having to stop and think about it step-by-step.

 

[jeepnik]

What advice would that be?

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/bill-jordan/

 

[Kleanbore]

https://www.legendsofamerica.com/bill-jordan/

I have long known of Bill Jordan.

I see no advice hare. He did devise a holster that is now a thing of the past.

 

[JERRY]

Since some have delved into tactics, regardless of the gun, the 5/5/5 drill tells you a lot.

Draw from concealment, fire 5 rounds in 5 seconds at 5 yards onto a standard paper plate target.

 

[UncleEd]

And - hopefully - without having to stop and think about it step-by-step.

Uh oh, I think you've hit on my problem. I have a 5-step
style of draw. Ah one, ah two, ah three, ah-ah-ah.
OK, ah one, ah two, ah three, ah.......

 

[fastbolt]

Uh oh, I think you've hit on my problem. I have a 5-step
style of draw. Ah one, ah two, ah three, ah-ah-ah.
OK, ah one, ah two, ah three, ah.......

I once lightly jibed some of the special guys (think swat) when they'd come back from some outside schools, and they were going their through their sequential, step-by-step 2-handed draw/presentations. I pointed out they were making noticeable breaks/steps in their draw/presentations, when they were supposed to be on the clock and making hits on identified threat targets.

I suggested they make it a faster, smooth draw sequence without the noticeable pauses they were introducing into it. One which wouldn't slow down putting hits on target (once the decision had been made to shoot, of course). I didn't mind them going through the reverse steps and pauses after no more shots were supposed to be made, on the way to holstering. After all, there aren't any awards handed out for being the fastest to reholster, right?

Anyway, I got some push back from some of them, being told their advanced (meaning outside) training classes were more advanced than what average cops were being taught, and what we were teaching. Well, alrighty then. I'm paid the same, regardless. Since their head trainer was also a close friend, he apologized and tried to mitigate the push back and the way it was delivered. No biggie.

Then, there came a time when a few of them had returned from another of their series of outside advanced training classes. I learned (from my friend) that a couple of them had joked to the outside trainers about how one of their agency trainers had suggested they not break down their drawing sequence into steps. Reportedly, the outside trainer looked at them ... and then told them that they were only supposed to break down the sequence into steps for the learning process, and they were supposed to be able to do it as a single fast and smooth sequence in actual application. I was told (by my friend) that the response was ...

 

[UncleEd]

And over on RevolverGuy.com a new article was
started Saturday on the many things that can go
wrong with a revolver.

 

[Agsalaska]

I thought context in this thread and what we were discussing was civilian carry and not fighting wars. In that regard I'd agree with you, but would also say then the P365 and the like and subcompacts like the G26 are also "obsolete" for military use. Then I'd take it a step further and would say the the bigger fullsize pistols have become obsolete in modern-day EDC.


That maybe true and I agree with you within a perfect setting. The fact still remains that irregardless of the manufacturer, parts wear and do break. I've been on GlockTalk, the S&W forum, and other popular firearm forums long enough to know that this is the case. It might not happen a lot per capita, but it's still happens. Next, in an altercation where one doesn't have proper grip, the slide stop, mag release, riding the slide, being pushed out of battery, failure to eject or load a new round, limp writing, etc do become valid failure points that aren't an issue with revolvers. The fact still remains that semiautos introduce several more points of failure. There are a whole list of things that must go right in relation to one another else your left holding a paperweight.

Semi-autos are for the most part can be just as reliable as revolvers if the your grip and everything else is perfect as would be more likely in competition, at the range, and during a training class; otherwise, revolvers become much more reliable during a struggle.

I would like to add to this part. At least twice in recent range trips I failed to properly insert my magazine on my Sig P220. I topped off the magazine after chambering and the second shot went 'click'. The last time my wife went to the range she, at least twice, forgot to disengage the safety on a Hi-Power and did nothing other than expose her flinch when she tried to pull the trigger. About a year ago after cleaning I put the spring in backwards on my Kahr K9 and after a few shots the gun was non functional and had to be stripped to be shootable. Only took a minute but if I had been relying on it the gun would have failed me. That's five failures just in the last couple of trips.

Don't get me wrong, I shoot both. And if I knew I was going to need a gun and a rifle/shotgun was not an option I would grab a semi-auto. But they absolutely without a doubt fail more often than revolvers. For reasons you and I both mentioned.

 

[Styx]

And over on RevolverGuy.com a new article was
started Saturday on the many things that can go
wrong with a revolver.

He basically listed all the components that a revolvers has, and then says that may break or malfunction with heavy use or neglect causing a malfunction. Duhh... Of course a revolvers can and will malfunction if the firing pin, trigger, cylinder, hammer, crane, barrel, springs, etc breaks. It seems like a silly and disingenuous argument on their part. That's like me saying Glocks can malfunctions when they're full of mud and debris, they're not properly oiled and maintained, the firing pin, extractor, slide, trigger, slide rails, the barrel, the endplate, so on and so forth breaks.

 

[UncleEd]

He basically listed all the components that a revolvers has, and then says that may break or malfunction ......

Relax.

Mike over on RevolverGuy is merely pointing out all
the things "revolver guys" should be aware of and a few that
should be periodically checked. It's just a thorough run down of the
workings of revolvers. If you read a lot of postings by forum
members here and other places, you can't be surprised by how
unfamiliar so many are about their firearms. Doesn't hurt to
"educate" them be it the revolver or the auto.

Relax.

 

[.455_Hunter]

In 35 years of shooting, I have experienced malfunctions with semi-autos at a higher rate than revolvers. However, both are low frequency.

Some highlights have included:

Revolvers-

A S&W .357 revolver with the hammer nose bushing recessed too deep that allowed for primers in magnum ammo to unseat and bind the action.

A misfire on a Colt .38 revolver due to off-center primer strike when a new shooter milked and staged the trigger excessively before the shot.

A S&W .44 Special revolver with excessive endshake that allowed cylinder rub and bind on the barrel extension.

Various .22 revolvers than bind due to irregular rimfire case swelling.

I have yet to experience the famous unburned powder under the extractor or the jumping crimp bullet.

Semi-autos-

Multiple platforms with plain old failures to feed based on ammo profiles, magazine problems and cleanliness.

Feed ramps that required polishing because they looked like were hacked out using a hammer and dull chisel.

Firing mechanism jam due to internal part fracture.

 

[trackskippy]

From what Ive seen, as long as youre using good and proper ammo, its usually not much of a problem with either.

I shoot mostly my reloads in practice and I shoot them to failure, so that does tend to cause issues, with both, but I see more of a problem with that with my autos. The worn rims from constant extraction tend to cause all sorts of random stoppages as they get close to the end of their life. The worst of that with the revolvers is usually the case neck not holding the crimp and the bullet jumping the crimp under recoil and thats usually not a good stoppage. At least for S&W's.

Now, when I do have issues with my revolvers, the guns were usually DRT with most of them, and required tools and time to get them back in action. With the autos, 99% of stoppages were normally solved with a TRB, and the gun was usually down less than the time of a reload.

Whatever you choose, you need to be well acquainted with what it is you use, and be well acquainted with what to do when things go wrong. Shoot either of them enough in practice, and youll get to see the good and bad.

 

[Styx]

Relax.

Mike over on RevolverGuy is merely pointing out all
the things "revolver guys" should be aware of and a few that
should be periodically checked. It's just a thorough run down of the
workings of revolvers. If you read a lot of postings by forum
members here and other places, you can't be surprised by how
unfamiliar so many are about their firearms. Doesn't hurt to
"educate" them be it the revolver or the auto.

Relax.

I am relaxed.

 

[nofendertom]

.455 Hunter --- Most of the problems you have encountered appear to be lack of quality control rather than problems stemming from usage.

 

[SDGlock23]

I hope they're not obsolete, I'd have to quit buying them.