Massad Ayoob Strikes again

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USMCDK

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Hey guys just got done reading another article in a magazine called "Combat Handguns" May 2008 issue.

The article starts on page 9, "Danger of hardball defense ammo alert", and continues/ends on page 90. It's an article about over penetration using hardball FMJ ammo for self defense and gives awsome statistic ratio percenatge in both civilian and LE senarios about injuring innocent bystanders or even friendly fire. The percentages are astounding towards the over penetration of such FMJ ammo as 9mm 115gr rds and .45 230gr rds. I suggest someof you if not all should read this article and for those of you that think over penetration is something you won't have to worry about while using FMJ ammo in you SD CCW read this definately and think again. Who knows maybe the next time you shoot your fire arm is a time you are doing it to protect something (i.e. yourself and or loved ones) and that bullet doesn't just stop there it hits who you are trying to save. or even worse riccochettes and then hit's them. don't think it's true, well once, again read the article, it will back up this statement with hard numbers.

Oh BTW the author is Massad Ayoob.

Also it give a link to www.krause.com we should all check that out as well.

Kyle

Ps. I am also posting this in the autoloaders sections for those of them that might not come into this thread genre. So please Mods don't lock or delete either one. I would appreciate it and Thank you!
 
Hey guys just got done reading another article in a magazine called "Combat Handguns" May 2008 issue.

The article starts on page 9, "Danger of hardball defense ammo", and continues/ends on page 90. It's an article about over penetration using hardball FMJ ammo for self defense and gives awsome statistic ratio percenatge in both civilian and LE senarios about injuring innocent bystanders or even friendly fire. The percentages are astounding towards the over penetration of such FMJ ammo as 9mm 115gr rds and .45 230gr rds. I suggest someof you if not all should read this article and for those of you that think over penetration is something you won't have to worry about while using FMJ ammo in you SD CCW read this definately and think again. Who knows maybe the next time you shoot your fire arm is a time you are doing it to protect something (i.e. yourself and or loved ones) and that bullet doesn't just stop there it hits who you are trying to save. or even worse riccochettes and then hit's them. don't think it's true well once again read the article, it will back up this statement with hard numbers.

Oh BTW the author is Massad Ayoob.

Also it give a link to www.krause.com we should all check that out as well.

Kyle
 
Considering that any penetration that results in death is adequate, whether 1" or 24", no, there are no such statistics.
 
No there were no stats on the death rate of those that were shot and no over-pen. Massad strategically left those stats out

+1 Ayoob
 
Interesting...But I cannot carry my handgun anyway and for inside the house FMJ is not dangerous to anybody except the BG ;)
 
and for inside the house FMJ is not dangerous to anybody except the BG
Click to expand...

Not true grasshopper... if you have windows-most doors and non masonary walls the bullet can pass through into the great beyond.

Studded/drywall walls do not usually stop rounds... and ceilings and roofs don't usually either etc...
 
All I care is whether my ammo of choice funtions as reliably as possible in my CCW. Whether ball or HP is moot if it doesn't function. I'm not sure I'll be concerned about collateral damage while someone's trying to kill me either.
 
Considering that in gunfights, only about 20-30% of the rounds hit anyway, I'd say that overpenetration is a bit overstated. Collateral damage is much more likely to occur from misses than with shots that overpenetrate.
 
Early in his career, he wasn't that opposed to FMJ. Mr. Ayoob has evolved, or re-invented himself in many ways...
His combat-martial arts segment on PD TV is quite a departure for him at his age. IMHO, out of his element. I wonder what Brad Steiner must be thinking..(Private joke for those that have followed this in-fighting duo.)
Mr. Ayoob is a salesman now & for hire...Profit lies in PD ammo...Nuf said...:)
 
I have read (I think by M. Ayoob, but am not certain.) that the .38 Special roundnose "widowmaker" would exit a human torso MORE often than its ballistics indicated and that .45 ACP hardball would exit LESS often than ballistics predicted. 9mm is fairly well known for going all the way through an enemy.

So I shoot .38 and 9mm hollowpoints. But I have about concluded that .45 ball is preferable because of the way people keep monkeying around with the guns and loads.
 
Contrary to many here, Massad is one of my favorite magazine/internet mentors. The man has vast, real-life experience that I'm more than willing to take advantage of at every turn.

I never understood the put-downs on him (and LEOs in general) that I read on THR. Some of you people must be perfect (in your own minds), but I don't see a lot of alternative details from you after a tirade on Mr. Ayoob's points.
 
Not always, but usually I want over penetration. If the evil ones always went around naked and never got behind any cover I might see things differently. As it is the odds of my getting into a shooting situation are about the same as getting hit by lightning, and the likelihood of hitting someone in the background is even more out of sight.

Full-jacketed bullets are a pistol sort of issue, and throughout the world they are universally used in autoloaders. Only in the United States does there seem to be a problem with over penetration. But I suppose we have to worry about something.
 
Full-jacketed bullets are a pistol sort of issue, and throughout the world they are universally used in autoloaders. Only in the United States does there seem to be a problem with over penetration. But I suppose we have to worry about something.
Click to expand...

Only in the US are you likely to get sued if you round punches through the target and into a bystander.
 
Why do some of you guys expect Mas to include data about under penetration, and any negative correlating data? That's not what the article is about.

He's not speaking on expanding ammunition being a better stopper than FMJ (though I believe it is), he's merely explaining that there are liabilities involved when you choose to use FMJ ammo because you want "better penetration" and it punches through and kills the person you were trying to save, a little old lady down the street, or a brother officer.

It happens a lot more than you'd imagine, and Mr. Ayoob is the one compiling all the incidents to make his point. I don't see any of his detractors putting in this kind of effort.
 
Ball is for 1911s that won't feed anything else or .32s that lack penetration anyway. Me, I shoot JHPs. Some things I don't agree with Mas on, this ain't one of 'em. Over all, I do find myself in agreement with most of the stuff he's written, though, and it's usually a good read that makes you think.

I don't know about anywhere else, but in Texas, if your round finds an innocent, it's not just a civil action, it's criminal, neglegent homicide. You do not have the right to stop a bad guy at some 3 year old's expense, I'm quite sorry, but that's a fact of life. Your life is not any more valuable than that of an innocent and you can go to prison for it.
 
I agree with Mas on this one, left the details in the autoloader forum. I don't really wanna go to prison for killing a kid that wasn't the intended target. That's the crux of it. Plus, I ain't wantin' my life to rely on less than effective ammo, anyway. Ball is crap. Yeah, I know, it killed a lot of Japanese, but it's also the ONLY ammo allowed in warfare. More effective hollowpoints are "cruel". Well, I don't mind being cruel on the street with my life on the line.
 
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