Massad Ayoob

Status
Not open for further replies.

M203Sniper

member
Joined
Mar 23, 2008
Messages
465
Location
I live in Arizona
Spoke in Tombstone about the JFK shooting, debunking the conspiracy theories around the JFK shooting. I missed it because of work, nice article though.

The Sierra Vista Herald Article

By Derek Jordan
Herald/Review

Published on Friday, November 14, 2008
TOMBSTONE — Residents and visitors of a city that thrives on history had a chance for something a little different Thursday, when a national firearms and self-defense expert gave a presentation on one of the most defining moments in American history.

Massad Ayoob, 60, is a 35-year veteran law enforcement instructor and part-time officer. Ayoob was in Tombstone as part of the Annual Western History Symposium and Book Exposition, where he gave a detailed presentation debunking many conspiracy theories surrounding the assassination of John F. Kennedy.

An author of nonfiction books and countless articles for weapons magazines, Ayoob drew on his knowledge to point out flaws in popular theories, like the possibility of multiple gunmen, to conclude that Lee Harvey Oswald killed Kennedy.

So, why have a presentation about the Kennedy assassination at an event catered towards legends of the West, such as Billy the Kid and Wyatt Earp?

“That was my first question to Mr. Hickey,” Ayoob said, referring to Talei Publishers Inc. owner Michael Hickey, one of the main organizers and sponsors of the symposium.

“The fact is, it doesn’t say Old Western history, it says western history,” Ayoob said, “and at least to us easterners, it doesn’t get much more western than Dallas, Texas.”

Ayoob currently lives in Florida and New Hampshire but spends half the year traveling throughout the country teaching his 40-hour courses on weapons training and self-defense.

“I turned out to be one of those lucky people who get to make a living out of their hobby,” he said.

His extensive knowledge about the assassination stems from the mid-1990s, when he was called as an expert witness to testify in a trial in which an author, Bonar Menninger, had written a book supporting a theory that a Secret Service agent, George Hickey, had accidentally shot and killed Kennedy while riding in the car behind him in the presidential motorcade.

“I’ve been giving expert testimony and this type of thing since 1979,” he said.

“I show the Zapruder film in some of my classes when I’m lecturing on witness dynamics, as the most classic example of, if we’re not looking for it, we won’t see it.”

Ayoob is referring to the instance in which then Texas Gov. John Connally, sitting with Kennedy in the car, involuntarily reacted to being shot by lifting his arm suddenly, a movement that Ayoob said went unnoticed for decades after the incident.

“Tens of millions of people have seen that over the years, and it takes 20 years for one guy to spot a big white Stetson hat flipping almost a foot in the air.”

His classes, with names like the “Judicious Use of Deadly Force” and “Advance Handgun Skills,” take him all over the country.

“It’s way easier to bring one instructor to 20 or 30 students than vice versa,” he said.

His classes are normally comprised of a mixture of professionals and individuals who may face or have faced violent situations.

“We get a lot of high-risk retailers, and I would say a higher-than-average percentage of people who are stalking victims, (people) who have had death threats,” he said.

Those in the medical field, engineers and attorneys consistently make up part of the top five jobs of those that attend his courses, he said.

Ayoob had previously attended the Tombstone symposium in 2006, when he gave a lecture on the ballistics of the O.K. Corral shootout.

He said he’s planning on remaining in town for the remainder of the event, which lasts until Sunday, and is looking forward to the discussion of the death of Billy the Kid today.

“That is going to be fascinating,” he said.

It’s an opportunity, he said, to learn a little history.

“What you got here, with this group, (are) the premiere cowboy-western historians.”

For information about the Annual Western History Symposium and Book Exposition, go online to http://www.tombstonetimes.com/images/talei0808.jpg.

Herald/Review City Editor Ted Morris can be reached at 515-4614 or by e-mail at [email protected].

:cool:
 
Anyway.. Anyone who actually did shoot a Carcano in his liftime knows that the official version is just impossible.. Now, I don't pretend to know what actually happened, but the official version.. nah...
 
JFK was killed by....

Lee Harvey Oswald. Its been proven many times now. Vincent Bugliosi went so far as to write a thousand page book on the subject (he originally thought it was a conspiracy) Penn and Teller had a nice segment about how a head very well can snap back toward the source of the shot, and I think its the discovery channel that has a new special coming out that uses modern blood spatter evidence, a forensic dummy and some sharp shooters that once again proves that the shots came from the sixth story window.
 
I don't see how less than four bullets were fired. If you count the known impact points, you have four, maybe five bullets. A bullet is known to have hit the sidewalk; one hit the windshield of the limo; one hit Kennedy in the back (and also hit Connolly if you buy that theory which I don't and neither did Connolly who always maintained he was not hit by the same bullet); and the infamous head shot. The official version is that Oswald fired three rounds that did all the damage. I don't believe that is possible.

I think the mob had him hit. He and his brother Robert, the attorney general, were going after the mob big time after the organized crime leaders made a deal with their crooked, gangster father to steal the election for John in 1960. The mob doesn't like it when you double cross them. The mob had motive and the capability to murder the president. They would also be able to keep it hushed up.

I have been to Dealy Plaza and I have studied the evidence. With all due respect to Ayoob, I don't see how one man could have done it with three shots from that crappy rifle.
 
Last edited:
I agree almost completly with saxon pig as regards to motive also what happened to kennedy's brain?
 
There is no way you can fire a Carcano so accurately, so quickly with such a crappy rifle mechanism..

We've tried many times.. 3 rounds in 5 seconds is nearly impossible to do, even if you dont aim your shots.
 
I hate to see this turn into a conspiracy theory thread, but I have to put in my $.02. I've always found it very difficult to believe that one man with a crappy bolt action rifle could fire that many accurate shots in so little time. Oswald may indeed have shot Kennedy, but I've always suspected that there was at least another shooter. The Mob theory sounds credible. Oswald may have been one of several shooters, or he may have simply been a fall guy, but there seems to be more to the story than most people are willing to acknowledge. The fact that Oswald was killed off so quickly strikes me as awfully suspicious.
 
Except the shooting has been re-enacted several times, to my knowledge. Identical rifle, high angle, moving target, same time limit.

No, I haven't done it, but I did live within walking distance (OK, 3-4 miles) of Dealy Plaza for a number of years...
I have been to Dealy Plaza and...


Ironically, if that pathetic loser Oswald hadn't martyred JFK, he would be a nearly forgotten one-term hack to this day. No "Camalot", no "Kennedy myth"; my generation would have been perhaps a little bit less warped.
 
I once heard John Connally say on a Sunday news program that he didn't believe that anyone could "fire a bolt action rifle that fast". He then withdrew the comment and refused to say any more on the subject.


I was never able to manipulate a Carcano very fast and I doubted the Commission's conclusions.

But: remember that the bolt was already closed at the time of the first shot. I've seen a re-enactment that now has me convinced that the official version is probably true.

I have enough faith in Ayoob to put it to rest.
 
The Kennedy motorcade approached the Book Depository and then turned driving away from the building which poses a question for me. If you were presented with two targets, one moving toward you, exposing a chest and head and one moving away exposing a shoulder and head why would you take the second? Part two of the question, the first option would also give you a greater window for follow up shots where the latter would not, so why wait till the car was going away from you? This has never made sense to me especially when Oswald was supposidly "a highly trained marksman".
 
Even if someone has a good name it doesn't mean they know the truth. It is all speculation, some by those with exspearience in shootings and some who have read the reports on shootings.

When the government writes a report it is always to protect government. Making a conclusion after reading a government report is just plain stupid at best when you know the facts are not real in the report.

jj

Edited to say How long has government been telling you Fannie and Freddie were in good shape etc.
 
Last edited:
I've seen two re-enactments that demonstrated the feasibility.

I've never seen any. The trick isn't working the bolt and firing but re-acquiring the moving target using a glass sight when the target is through tree branches.

I've never seen that even tried. To me, it seals the deal. The feat is impossible. I'll only revise my opinion when I see a REAL enactment - not just some trained Marine working a bolt 3 times & getting off 3 unaimed shots.
 
The shooting was not that fast. Remember, the clock STARTS when the first shot is fired, so you are firing two more shots in 6 to 9 seconds (depending on the interpretation of the Zapruder film). And the first shot was only 60 yards, the third was ~80 yards. Practically point-blank range, with a 4x scope, from a rest, and one of those was a clean miss.

Here's an older guy doing it, without a whole lot of practice:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MBeMaEwwvwU

And the rifle can be fired a lot faster than that:

http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=aoqB1_RWW5w&feature=related

If you look around on Youtube, there are several videos of Carcano owners making hits on balloons and such at 60-80 yards within the allotted time.
 
what happened to kennedy's brain?

It's shown in the film. Blasted out the holes in the skull.

When I was in the Air Force in the late '70, we set up a moving "car" that we'd rigged up with cardboard silhouettes. We shot from a safety officer tower at the base range. Not as high as a 6th story window, but it was the best we could do. One of the NCOs had the same model rifle that Oswold used and surplus ammo. We all used open sights, since the scope on the original rifle (we'd heard) wasn't sighted in.

Four of us tried it. We were all good to expert shots. We all managed it in the time allowed.

Years later it was pointed out that Oswold fired the rifle from his left shoulder, using his left hand on the trigger and working the bolt with his right hand. He never took his hand off the bolt, so he could shoot pretty fast without disturbing his position. This info came from his neighbors. Oswold had made them very nervous, sitting on his porch with the rifle resting on the railing and practicing for hours. They'd called the cops, but in Dallas there was nothing illegal about dry-firing a rifle on your own porch.
 
If you look around on Youtube, there are several videos of Carcano owners making hits on balloons and such at 60-80 yards within the allotted time.

Not while the balloons are moving and have to be hit sighting through the branches of a tree. Have YOU ever tried acquiring a moving target through tree branches? Try and and you'll see the utter b.s. that is those youtube demos.
 
according to wiki(so whatever that is worth) Carlos Hatchcock stated that he tried the shot and couldnt do it
 
It flat cannot be done. By anybody including Hathcock. It's as silly as saying that Oswald flew to the moon to get his ammo.
 
this shows a lee enfield... which bolt is know to be one of the smoothest and easier to handle.. a Carcano is far more rugged.
The Discovery Channel documentary had a shooter recreate the shots with a carcano and it was possible to do within the timeframe. On some of the attempts, ammo and gun problems did keep it from working out-but at least one of the attempts worked.
 
Status
Not open for further replies.
Back
Top