Massive chain fire in 1851 Navy. Suggestions?

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Fire_At_Will

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I am new to the "art" of C&B revolvers and recently dove in head first by buying some used pistols. No problems with the .44 cal Piettas, but the .36 cal EIG (circa 1969) gave me a quite a start. First, the pistol is in very good condition and, like the others, I tore it down for inspection and cleaning before using it. I loaded it light (brass frame) with 15 gr of Goex 3f, put in a lubed wad and added a smear of bore butter on the wad so the ball was sitting on a small "cup" of grease. Put some on top of the ball too.

After loading all six cylinders (bad idea for first test?), I added the caps and discovered the cylinder would not turn because of clearance issues. I took the cylinder off, removed the caps and found the nipples could be tightened another 1/2 to a full turn. The cylinder with caps added could then turn easily. When I fired that first fateful shot, five of six chambers discharged! Ouch! Gun and user were unscathed somehow. I was shaken, but I am not easily deterred.

I am convinced no sparks entered from the front, and since so many chambers fired, I feel the cylinder moved back from recoil and with so little clearance, the caps impacted the frame. If the nipples are screwed in all the way, what can i do to fix this? Shorter nipples or filing them down?
 
One thing stick out to me. You stated "five of six chambers discharged!"
How is it you were not able to determine how many chambers discharged?
How many chambers did you load? How many were still loaded after the fateful event?

Regardless,
The nipples should not be long enough to contact the frame.
They could be the wrong nipples, or they may not be seated fully.
Might want to chase the threads with a tap in case some rust or other debris has gotten in there sometime between 1969 and today preventing the nipples from seating fully..
 
You are on the right track with the nipple length. That is the only justification for 5 of 6 going together or nearly so. First round fires, the cylinder moves back and too long nipples fire when they hit the recoil shield. Track of the Wolf can help you.
 
I would try loading one cylinder and capping the rest. If the caps detonate when the loaded cylinder is fired it would prove your assessment correct, I suspect it is.
I would use a dremel, and file to shorten the nipples. They should have a slightly beveled edge if they don't already.
The nipples should be adjusted so that the resting hammer doesn't quite touch. This prevents damage to the hammer and mushrooming of the nipple.
 
Have had it happen to me, but only the one next to the barrel on a '60. I had just put new nipples in it and the were to long, I later had to get ones for a Euroarms which are shorter. The gun also had issues with barrel/cylinder gap that allowed the cylinder to act like a hammer.
If this brass framed gun has the imprint of the back of the cylinder imprinted (smashed) in to the frame it may have been over loaded in it's former life.
 
Is there play in the cylinder fore and aft?

If so, I second the stretched frame idea... if it wasn’t before, it probably is now...
 
Malachi:
If he said 5 of six discharged which answered your question before asked then he knew how many discharged from what I read
He also said he loaded all 6 apparently one was still loaded afterwards
Not criticizing you but he did answer the questions you asked in his first post
--------------------------------------------
early replicas sometimes were not very well manufactured, tolerances were iffy
one thing to check for is porous metal inside the chambers seal one off at a time fill with rubbing alcohol see if it drains out,
then proceed to next chamber and so on. Doubtful but possible, I have personally seen it in a couple older replicas
The caps when installed should be below the metal surfaces surrounding them so if they strike the shield If they are protruding
you can have shop ream the nipple recess and rethread or a groove cut in shield.
You also need to check cylinder end play maybe put a shim on the shield or back of the cylinder to stop it from slamming backwards.
with a lubed wad, with bore butter over the powder, and over the ball doubtful a spark got across all five chambers even if the ball was some what undersized.
without physically seeing the gun the best I can offer
I have had to use mine as a starter pistol with a couple grains of powder a couple wads and no ball and never had a chain fire.
Malachi Leviticus Blue said:
One thing stick out to me. You stated "five of six chambers discharged!"
How is it you were not able to determine how many chambers discharged?
How many chambers did you load? How many were still loaded after the fateful event?
Click to expand...
 
seen this from using undersize balls. For whats its worth, most if not all black powder pistols calibers are marked as the land distance, not the grove distance. So a 454 bore would be labeled "44 Cal", and leading people to use undersize balls. For what its worth, this can stretch a frame or strip the arbor threads easily on a brass frame.
 
The firing of adjacent chambers in a cap'n'ball is startling, but I have seen tests that show that straight out of the chamber without a barrel the velocity is low. Still enough to dent a sheet of plywood. One reason I lost interest in shoulder stocked revolvers or cattleman's carbines.

Searching "EIG 1851 Navy" I find photos of a brass frame replica Colt 1851.
"(circa 1969)" I would not be surprised to see an imprint of the the cylinder "star" in the brass breechface if it has been shot much.
"Brass" frame revolvers don't have a long life even if the brass is a proper bronze, gunmetal or bellmetal brass alloy. If the frame is cartridge brass alloy it is too soft.

Correct ball size for the .36 revolver is usually .375 (bigger than the correct ball for a .36 muzzleloading rifle) since the revolver ball must be forced into the chamber for a flame-proof fit. A .36 rifle ball is not a good gas seal for a .36 cap'n'ball revolver. Not that I would ever load a .36 revolver with actual .360" rifle balls. Or admit to it.


(I top my chambers off with a blend of bee's wax and crisco. I found it does not take long for over powder felt lubed wads to contaminate the powder.)
 
I did two different things to eliminate chain-fires. The first was to use ox-Yoke wonder wads (there are plenty of other places to get them, this was just my first hit). Even cheaper was to put a bit of Crisco over each bullet as I was loading. Both worked, Crisco was messier.
 
Hasaf said:
I did two different things to eliminate chain-fires. The first was to use ox-Yoke wonder wads (there are plenty of other places to get them, this was just my first hit). Even cheaper was to put a bit of Crisco over each bullet as I was loading. Both worked, Crisco was messier.
Click to expand...

Use the Wonder Wad, forget the Crisco. A bazillion years ago when I first started shooting Cap & Ball it was standard practice to use Crisco over the ball. Generally speaking it is next to useless. The Crisco in the chamber next to the one being fired, usually melts from the blast of hot gasses coming out of the barrel cylinder gap. So you are left with a thin, runny layer of goo covering the ball. If there happens to be a cut or dent, or other malformation in the ball where it has been seated in the chamber, that will leave a nice void for an errant spark to find its way down to a powder charge. Once I discovered Wonder Wads a whole bunch of years ago I never put Crisco over the balls again.

At best, when you shave off a ring of lead you will get a thin band of less than 1/16" seal between the ball and the chamber. A dent or cut could easily bridge that. A Wonder Wad is something like 1/8" thick. 1/8" of Wonder Wad between the ball and the powder will form a much better spark arrestor than 1/16" of lead.

Another thought: When I take an old gun out to fire it for the first time, I never load it up all the way. Revolver or rifle. The first shot I only load one chamber in a revolver. Then I walk right up to the berm and point the gun at the berm, holding it as far away from my body as possible. No matter how much you know about old guns, you never know if an old gun might let go on you. So I never load it all the way up. After a few single shots, I get a little bit more confidence and then I fire three shots. After that, I load it up all the way. And with any old fashioned single action revolver I never load all six. Never. Never more than five.

I was just chatting with a friend the other day. He told me about the time he had a chain fire in an original 1851 Navy. It was an old, worn gun. This was many years ago, and nobody had told him the bit about shaving off a ring of lead. This old Navy was so worn the chambers were slightly tapered from wear. He loaded up all six chambers, shoving the balls down until they met resistance where the chambers were not so worn. The first time he pulled the trigger, all six chambers went off at once.
 
DD4lifeusmc said:
If he said 5 of six discharged which answered your question before asked then he knew how many discharged from what I read
He also said he loaded all 6 apparently one was still loaded afterwards...
Click to expand...

You are right. I miss read or misunderstood somehow. My lame excuse is that it was still before 6:00AM and I must have had a cylinder missing...
 
Yikes. Tighter fitting caps is a good start. You may want to check your endshake. Got feeler gauges?
 
Fire_At_Will said:
I am new to the "art" of C&B revolvers and recently dove in head first by buying some used pistols. No problems with the .44 cal Piettas, but the .36 cal EIG (circa 1969) gave me a quite a start. First, the pistol is in very good condition and, like the others, I tore it down for inspection and cleaning before using it. I loaded it light (brass frame) with 15 gr of Goex 3f, put in a lubed wad and added a smear of bore butter on the wad so the ball was sitting on a small "cup" of grease. Put some on top of the ball too.

After loading all six cylinders (bad idea for first test?), I added the caps and discovered the cylinder would not turn because of clearance issues. I took the cylinder off, removed the caps and found the nipples could be tightened another 1/2 to a full turn. The cylinder with caps added could then turn easily. When I fired that first fateful shot, five of six chambers discharged! Ouch! Gun and user were unscathed somehow. I was shaken, but I am not easily deterred.

I am convinced no sparks entered from the front, and since so many chambers fired, I feel the cylinder moved back from recoil and with so little clearance, the caps impacted the frame. If the nipples are screwed in all the way, what can i do to fix this? Shorter nipples or filing them down?
Click to expand...
Enough suggestions yet? What about some more information especially on condition of the gun.
 
drunkenpoacher said:
I would try loading one cylinder and capping the rest. If the caps detonate when the loaded cylinder is fired it would prove your assessment correct, I suspect it is.
I would use a dremel, and file to shorten the nipples. They should have a slightly beveled edge if they don't already.
The nipples should be adjusted so that the resting hammer doesn't quite touch. This prevents damage to the hammer and mushrooming of the nipple.
Click to expand...
This approach occurred to me on the way home. I did fire the remaining chamber with no problem. I also loaded a single chamber twice and fired both with no issues.
Good point on the hammer not quite touching the nipple. Will check with feeler gauge too.
 
OK, Saul Eig (The EIG logo) imported a bunch of junk back then. The actual builder of that revolver is long gone. Be safe and buy another frickin revolver.
 
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