Mauser 98 .243 - opinions, please

[gunsrfun1]

I was in a gun shop today and he has a Mauser 98 in .243 on the rack. I looked it over and cannot find many markings on it except for "98" on the receiver and ".243" on the barrel. I cannot find any import marks or importer branding.
The bolt is chromed and does not have any S/N stamped on it. The stock reminds me of a Remington 700 BDL stock, down to the black fore-end tip and cheek rest.
The trigger is very crisp and breaks at about 3 lbs. There is an instruction sheet with it, and at the bottom the address is Southgate, CA.
The gun is wearing a Nikon Prostaff 3 x 9 scope.
It fits me nicely, but I don't have to have it.
Anything special about this gun from what I have described, or is it "just another gun?" If so, I'd rather keep looking for something more readily available like a Savage, Remington, etc.
And based on what I've told you, what would be a fair price for it, if I decide to buy it?
Thanks

 

[JeffG]

My experiences with sporterized Mauser’s has been very mixed. Some are jems, and some are sinkers , depending on who did the work, how old they are, and what they originally were. Unless somebody could explain the Pedigree of the gun and a round count, I would probably steer clear of it, unless you want to take the risk of rebuilding the entire rifle, if something like headspace or chamber isn’t right. Especially when you can buy a Savage per se for 400 bucks. PS: offer $350 if you really want it, go from there...

 

[gunsrfun1]

OK thanks, basically what I was thinking based on my limited knowledge. I will likely pass based on your experience and advice with them.

 

[jono]

I have several that are real shooters.
If you have a picture or two, we could likely help more.

 

[jono]

If you don’t want it, I might...

 

[Riomouse911]

Weatherby rifles used to be made on 98 actions...and they were once located in South Gate Ca.... and the .243 Win pre-dates the Mark V action by a couple of years so it’s possible... but if it was a pre Mark V Weatherby I’m sure it would have the Weatherby name stamped on it somewhere.

Add some pics, we would love to see what you have!

Stay safe!

 

[gunsrfun1]

I found out more about it today. It's a home-built gun. The guy's father-in-law built it off a GEW 98 receiver. No idea if it's ever been headspaced, etc. He wants $500 for it. I told the gunshop owner no way.

 

[mustanger98]

I found out more about it today. It's a home-built gun. The guy's father-in-law built it off a GEW 98 receiver. No idea if it's ever been headspaced, etc. He wants $500 for it. I told the gunshop owner no way.

If it were me looking at it, I'd have used my own .243/.308Winchester go/no-go gauges. But starting at $500, I'd haggle. That doesn't mean I'd end up buying it.

 

[jono]

So I have to admit that I was thinking this might be an early Weatherby.

If you’re not interested, send a few pictures, and we can talk about a finders fee.,

 

[boom boom]

Weatherby rifles used to be made on 98 actions...and they were once located in South Gate Ca.... and the .243 Win pre-dates the Mark V action by a couple of years so it’s possible... but if it was a pre Mark V Weatherby I’m sure it would have the Weatherby name stamped on it somewhere.

Add some pics, we would love to see what you have!

Stay safe!

Weatherby used about 1000 post war commercial FN actions for some of his initial rifles in the mid 1950's, not military surplus ones. Weatherby was eventually dissatisfied with the receivers from FN and moved to one of his own design produced initially by Sauer for his Mark V, I believe in 1959 that is much more massive and strong. https://www.americanhunter.org/articles/2015/3/18/a-history-of-weatherby-tomorrow-s-rifles-today/

The postwar FN's also deviated from the wartime Mauser 98's in some minor and some fairly major differences which are summarized here. https://forums.gunboards.com/showthread.php?115320-Commercial-FN-Mauser-Actions-My-Take

 

[Offfhand]

So I have to admit that I was thinking this might be an early Weatherby.

This is what the early Weatherby rifles looked like. This one built on an FN commercial action. Though these FN actions were used on the majority of the first Weatherby rifles, other actions were also used, especially S&L for the large calibers...

 

[Mowgli Terry]

It was necessary to do some serious modifications on standard length Mauser actions for Weatherby cartridges as we know them today. Dehass in his book on bolt action rifles speaks of problems with the FN action. The problem was with long and/or high pressure cartridges. His example was a rifle in a 300 H&H wildcat. The 300 Weatherby is a blown out 300 H&H. What had happened was the lugs were setting back. Finally, the bottom lug cracked away from the bolt body. The standard length action was opened up in fed ramp area and the magazine box extended in the rear. In one of the articles referenced by boom-boom the 378's were too large for the standard Mauser action. It's wise to have a custom Mauser checked out for headspace and damage to the action. This is all about self preservation. The rifle at $500.00 may be a bargain or a turkey. Pictures would help.

 

[Slamfire]

The rifle at $500.00 may be a bargain or a turkey. Pictures would help.

Unless its free, its a Turkey, gobble, gobble!

No military Mauser is an appropriate conversion to 243 Winchester. The standard operating pressures of the cartridge are above the proof pressures of the military cartridge. The risk is, with sufficient rounds, the receiver seats will set back, and so will the lugs. It is not worth paying $500 for a questionable conversion when new, modern material rifles, are available for less, or equivalent.

If it was free, then, the stock might be worth $40.00.

Now if the rifle were chambered in something like the 30-06, standard WW2 era loading of a 150 grain bullet going 2750 fps out of a 24" barrel, that load was in the lower 40 Kpsia, and would have given the same bolt thrust as a 8mm military cartridge. Even the pre War 257 Roberts cartridge pressures would have been fine, also downloaded 270 Win cartridges. These cases have enough powder to push a bullet at a decent velocity without having to crank the pressures up. But, 308 Win based cartridges, they run hot. And really, speed is all the 243 Win has, a small bullet moving fast. Cut the velocity and it is very unimpressive.

What a beautiful rifle Offhand!

Period ad:

 

[jono]

1) I have never, ever seen an actual picture of a 98 Mauser action with the ring split open by any load of any chambering.

2) proof loads for even sklave ww2 98’s were 4000 bar+, and with a rebarrrled action, the actual chamber is dependent for all intents and purposes on the barrel, not the receiver.

3) Ackley elequently demonstrated that you could essentially cut the lugs off of a bolt, and the cartridge would stay nicely where it was due to temporary case expansion,


...so if the headspace is correct, and you don’t blow the primer, you probably are going to be just fine.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

No Lugs: I recall that Ackley's experiment was with a lever action rifle with an improved 30-30 cartridge. I thing examples of lug set back should establish the need for lugs in a Mauser action. For a fuller description of problems with FN actions opened up for 300 H&H and such see Frank DeHass' "Bolt Action Rifles" pp179. I'll hunt you up some data on blown Mauser's shortly.

Converting Mauser actions is not practical any longer. It's less expensive to find a donor actions of recent make. No worry about heat treatment or Bubba. My last bolt handle job on a 98 action was $100.00. It's modern donor actions from now on here on the hill.

 

[jono]

I’m not at home right now, but I’m pretty sure I have that book. I’ll check it out.
Thanks.

 

[jono]

I do it out of love, not economics.

My last “bolt handle job” cost me a couple cubic feet of argon and a half inch of 1/16 thoriated tungsten (because one of my friends walked in and I stuck the damned thing in the puddle)

It’s really neat to take something that is 100 yrs old and has no collector value and make it into something that not only is desirable now, but will still do an exemplary job in another century.

Sometimes I get a shiver and hear a quiet voice saying:

Wir haben unseren Teil gemacht. Vermassle es nicht.




You were right about Ackley using a model 94 for his test...

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Those pictures weren't from one of them Merchants of Death were they?

 

[Slamfire]

1) I have never, ever seen an actual picture of a 98 Mauser action with the ring split open by any load of any chambering.

2) proof loads for even sklave ww2 98’s were 4000 bar+, and with a rebarrrled action, the actual chamber is dependent for all intents and purposes on the barrel, not the receiver.

3) Ackley elequently demonstrated that you could essentially cut the lugs off of a bolt, and the cartridge would stay nicely where it was due to temporary case expansion,


...so if the headspace is correct, and you don’t blow the primer, you probably are going to be just fine.

Four thousand bar is 58,000 psia. The MAP for the 243 is 60,000 psia. The heck with that.

It is not a matter is there a blowup picture, it really is, what actions don't have blowup pictures.



Ackley was a snake oil salesman. Ackley did not invent case friction, nor was he the first to discover it. None of his experiments in his Handbook were instrumented. Professor Boatwright, in his blog, the well guided bullet, shows that a 308 case will hold in the chamber, assuming a lot of friction between case and chamber, till pressures are around 27,000 psia and then the case head will blow off. Ackley never ran his lugless test on a 30-06 AI, now did he? He ran that cartridge at an average of 15,000 psia above 30-06 industry pressures. No one noticed, but Ackley built a "bolt thrust" measuring device, and no one has ever shown Ackley's bolt thrust data. I will tell you, since Ackley built the measuring device, you know Ackley did run experiments, and found that his primary claim to fame was fraudulent, that is, his cartridges did not reduce bolt thrust. So where is the bolt thrust data?

 

[jono]

So Ackley’s snake oil propensities aside, that still isn’t a picture of a catastrophic failure that split the chamber and ring, that’s a picture of something that happened when a case ruptured due to what was probably grossly inadequate attention to headspacing. This was no doubt going on over a long period of time prior to whatever ultimately happened, and would certainly have been apparent to anyone who might realistically think himself competent to rebarrel a rifle.

 

[Slamfire]

So Ackley’s snake oil propensities aside, that still isn’t a picture of a catastrophic failure that split the chamber and ring, that’s a picture of something that happened when a case ruptured due to what was probably grossly inadequate attention to headspacing. This was no doubt going on over a long period of time prior to whatever ultimately happened, and would certainly have been apparent to anyone who might realistically think himself competent to rebarrel a rifle.

Are you moving the goal posts? What exact failure mechanism do you have to see, and what is it that you are looking for? You do understand that if the bolt lugs set back and the receiver seats set back, that increases cartridge case protrusion. And then, at some tiny increase of cartridge case protrusion (I don't know the number) the case walls/case head blows. And that is going to be basically indistinguishable from an over pressure event, which does the same thing. You are going to have to conduct your own blow up tests, because all I am doing, is copying other people's blowups, and none of the ones I have seen, is the guy a trained failure analysis expert. Unless the unfortunate posts lug and receiver seat pictures, all we are going to get, is "Hey Mom!" pictures, "my gun blew up!".

And you have to have chamber splits? The brass cartridge case is the weak link, it is going first. If there is a chamber split, that would probably be due to a metallurgical issue, though, given enough Bullseye in a case, maybe it could happen.

I am not talking about revolvers, lots of blown revolver cylinders and missing top strap pictures on the web.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Doing a search on the net you can find the top blown off about every firearm ever made. Also, check with Ackley when he was blowing up military rifles. Let us know how that worked out.

 

[Goosey]

Not sure how German pressure measurements would compare to CIP or SAAMI today. I see a MAP of 52K psi for sS heavy ball.

I looked up CIP figures, 8x57 IS is 3900 bar / 56.6K psi, the .30-06 is 4050 bar / 58.7K psi, the .243 and .308 are 4150 bar / 60.2K psi.

But a lot of full power .243 loads only develop around 50K CUP / 58K psi.

If you know your Mausers and know what you're doing...

 

[jono]

Slamfire, not trying to be difficult, and I do appreciate your perspective, however, a properly headspaced 98 with an appropriately lapped bolt has 2+1 things which are hell-bent on keeping it in battery.

I would posit that a Mark V Super Ultra Mongo Magnum action with 9 contact points would come apart just as well if you left the ass end of a cartridge sticking out 1/4 inch.

Mausers were designed with a safety factor of 3, that is, it should take 3x the max design load for anything bad to happen.
(and, after PPM put his eye out working on the semiauto version, the best damn gas venting ever)

I just went and checked a 1912 Steyr that I did in .243 about 10 yrs ago. Maybe 1k rounds through it since.

Closes tight on a go gauge and not even close on a no go.

I’m not too worried.

 

[Mowgli Terry]

Are we are talking about a 10% increase in pressure makes the action unsafe? , What about some of those high pressure rounds the Germans loaded in the 98 action like the 7x64 and the like. How about the magnum actions? I have a Mauser in 257 Roberts using heavy loads. Many rounds with no problems. Also a 35 Whelen in a 98 Mauser. And the real killer is a FN military 98 in 308 Norma Magnum. No problems,