Max Effectiveness of 7.62 x 39

[Blkhrt13]

I don't like it in this particular case because the OP is planning to buy a new, bolt action rifle and reload for it. That being the case, there's no logical reason to use that cartridge. We're basically talking about 7.62x39 vs. .243 or .308 type cartridges.

There is some reasons behind why. I already have a mini thirty and the RAR i am buying is the same magazine so the 6 I have get used in common. I discuss it some up stream but I should have included it in my OP.

 

[adcoch1]

There is some reasons behind why. I already have a mini thirty and RAR i am dying is the same magazine so the 6 I have get used in common. I discuss it some up stream but I should have included it in my OP.

Get one, you'll love it. Even at lower velocity than a 308 would throw 150 grain bullets, a 150 will kill all the game you want at reasonable ranges. Aren't we gun enablers here? Get a 300wm if you want a fast 30, and a x39 for close in stuff...

 

[mavracer]

There is some reasons behind why. I already have a mini thirty and RAR i am dying is the same magazine so the 6 I have get used in common.

LOL sure tell yourself that now and then after you buy the bolt gun you'll have an excuse to buy more mags cause 6 isn't near enough to keep 2 guns happy lol.
If you need more excuses think about the suppressor down the road, bolt actions don't have port pop or blow gas in your face(although a mini 30 wouldn't anyway).

 

[N555]

This goes back to why I never got an ak47.
Around 1999 I worked up up some 30-30 loads with .311 AK47 bullets. 123gr fmj, some cheap 123gr SP bullets, a chronograph and lots of different kinds of targets to shoot at.
Aside from shooting through materials the fmjs really weren't that impressive.
And the soft points weren't that impressive either.
The cheap corrosive ammo was super cheap and super corrosive. At least 90% of the surplus ammo available was the super corrosive stuff.
Where AK47 did impress:
ammo cost and availability, it was cheaper than dirt and everywhere then.
Higher quality 110gr HP ammo could really do a number on small east coast deer at "30-30 range" but it wasn't no 30-30.

 

[35 Whelen]

I don’t like the 7.62x39 vs 30/30 comparison because it’s kind of a paper argument since they generally use very different bullets.

Very much so, and it's simply a paper comparison. The 30-30 uses heaver bullets which allow for much better penetration on large game.

35W

 

[citizenconn]

It is always entertaining to read posts about the 7.62x39.

I have 8 or so 7.62x39 ARs (10.5" to 18" barrels) that I have shot extensively with handloaded ammo. Shooting 2 moa steel is pretty easy out to 400 yards. Beyond that I usually switch to another chambering.

For hunting I feel comfortable shooting whitetail deer and wild hogs here in the Texas woods out to 150-175 yards with the 7.62x39. Rarely do I see deer or hogs heavier than 200 lbs in my part of Texas during hunting season.

But when the .350 Legend came out I switched to that rather than the 7.62x39 for the same ranges. I like the 170 grain interlocks of the .350 L vs the 123 or so grain bullets of the x39. But I do most of my woods hunting with ARs and do not have an AK. My shooting partner has an SKS that is a great shooter but he prefers the ARs over it for hunting as well. If its not deer season I often take an AR in .450 BM for the added thump. I like my 6.8 SPCs, too.

If you like the 7.62x39, go for it. As long as you put in the marksmanship work with your platform and know its limitations it will get the job done within reasonable ranges (for me that's under 175 yards with the x39.)

 

[B_Li_Ber_Tar_Ian]

For hunting purposes the 7.62x39 would be just above a .22 mag . Sorry the cartridge isn't a hunting round IMO unless it's two legged and spray and pray abound the world around . I have them in several flavors including Russian but would NEVER consider them any animal cartridge . My $0.02 worth .

22 mag??? Ha!

 

[d2wing]

I think that is the key there. Both sides of the argument are right, and both sides are wrong. 7.62x39 can be as effective at 30-30...but not at the same distances. At some intersections, that .30 caliber bullet crosses each other's path with the same energy, but not the entire time nor entire distance.

The 30-30 has about double that energy and greater sectional density. Similar trajectory but not lethality at least with factory loads. Since Saigas do come in different calibers were those 7.62x39? I agree that a Saiga is superior to other versions in my experience for accuracy.

 

[N555]

The AK47 power level 30-30 ammo was quite pleasant out of a 94ae.

 

[BushMaster-15]

The 30-30 has about double that energy and greater sectional density. Similar trajectory but not lethality at least with factory loads. Since Saigas do come in different calibers were those 7.62x39? I agree that a Saiga is superior to other versions in my experience for accuracy.

As a former owner of two 7.62x39 Saiga's I'd have to agree . None of MY 7.62x39's AK or SKS are particularly accurate and I've got #11 .
However they're old friends and a couple of them are battle grabs ,I was fortunate enough to get home with . I'd venture to guess they weren't all that accurate when New ,let alone crapped up in combat .

 

[bearcreek]

There is some reasons behind why. I already have a mini thirty and RAR i am dying is the same magazine so the 6 I have get used in common. I discuss it some up stream but I should have included it in my OP.

What does magazine compatibility have to do with it? I thought we were talking about a bolt action for hunting deer?

 

[amd6547]

Accurate? I guess it depends on your definition. But I was happy with this 10-shot 100yd group shot standing, offhand. Rifle was a kit built Yugo war surplus folder with OEM barrel.

 

[someguy2800]

The 30-30 has about double that energy and greater sectional density.

double?

 

[Blkhrt13]

What does magazine compatibility have to do with it? I thought we were talking about a bolt action for hunting deer?

Because I like the idea of having twenty round mags for a bolt rifle. So far I have 4 rifle calibers. 375 win, 45-70, .556 and 7.62 x39 I was trying not to add another. I am not buying anything until I start hand loading because of the first two calibers I listed. Also I was assuming that hand loading the 7.62 round would add more accuracy to a caliber I already enjoy.

double?

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There is so many myths that get reinforced by peoples bias. This is the real truth.

 

[d2wing]

double?

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Yeah show what factory load that is. Oh yeah, you don't believe in SAAMI. I hope you don't hurt yourself. You can do that with any cartridge load it beyond SAAMI spec. Not sure that is a legit handload either. I did check at ammo.com. I was wrong standard 123 gr x39 ME is 1445. Me 0f 165 gr 30-30 is 2049. so i had the wrong numbers But your numbers are not in spec at all.

There is so many myths that get reinforced by peoples bias. This is the real truth.

Nope not a factory load.

Nope not a factory load. You can do the same with a 30-30. Load it to higher pressure.

I did check at ammo.com I had the wrong numbers. They list 123gr (2300) fps) at 1445 ME, 150 Gr 30-30 2480 MV) at 2049. while I was wrong about double, standard load show way more energy and sectional density for 30-30 loads. I am sure handloader can go crazy with both rounds so those are not valid.
Go crazy all you want. Claims that they are equal or even close as you claim are totally false.

 

[daniel craig]

Keep in mind, people have killed deer with pointy sticks for thousands of years, some of them even hand thrown. Your x39 bullet will out perform one of those pointy sticks at any given distance.

Put the bullet in the right spot and it doesn't actually take that much penetration or velocity to kill a deer. They are pretty soft skinned critters. I think a lot of people tend to over emphasize what is and is not effective in order to compensate for not great shooting.

When it comes to questions of is x bullet enough to kill a deer, the answer is almost always yes, given you can put it in the right spot at whatever distance.

 

[Blkhrt13]

Keep in mind, people have killed deer with pointy sticks for thousands of years, some of them even hand thrown. Your x39 bullet will out perform one of those pointy sticks at any given distance.

Put the bullet in the right spot and it doesn't actually take that much penetration or velocity to kill a deer. They are pretty soft skinned critters. I think a lot of people tend to over emphasize what is and is not effective in order to compensate for not great shooting.

When it comes to questions of is x bullet enough to kill a deer, the answer is almost always yes, given you can put it in the right spot at whatever distance.

I agree. I guess what I was really getting at is how much longer is the shot going to be with a bolt vs semi auto and could you milk more range hand loading.

 

[d2wing]

Right, I have seen videos of Russian trappers hunting with Mosins and SKS rifles. Eskimos shooting polar bears with ARs. I have killed several deer with the x39. No question that it is capable. The long-standing world record Kodiak Brown bear was shot by an Eskimo with a single shot .22. I don't recall if it was a long Rifle or Short. I don't care for all the fantasy and exaggeration but that has always been the case so I should ignore them.
I wonder if there isn't something behind all this false information going around about the effectiveness and range of the slower cartridges. It like some one wants everyone to use them since the 1960's.

Maybe you can marginally extend the range but not enough to make it worthwhile in my opinion. Even if you could match the 30-30, I don't think you honestly can, that doesn't give you that much more. Any slow cartridge is going to give you less accuracy and range, 200 yards is what some folks claim for the 30-30. Diversity gives you better chances of finding ammo and since you want to handload, there are dozens of options that will give you what you really what. .243, 6.5 CM, 308, 7-08. and dozens more. If you want to stay semi-auto there are dozens of cartridges, you can get in an AR.
Nothing wrong with the x39, it is capable of great accuracy in a handload and good bolt action but it's a waste of money in my opinion because the gains would be so small. Still under 200 yards. Why handicap yourself and take risky shots.

 

[Electrod47]

I built a AR Platform 7.62X39 years ago and have taken several deer cleanly dropping them like they were struck with lightning. The Caveat I used Hornady B-Tip Factory Ammo and all shots were within 120 yards. Most at 80. Total interior destruction of the vitals. One Shot. I got 3" groups at 100 yards. Bought dies and bullets but have yet to do the deed. Good Luck. PS All Bucks at least 6 Point mostly 8-10 though, White Tail Deer.

 

[mavracer]

I did check at ammo.com I had the wrong numbers. They list 123gr (2300) fps) at 1445 ME, 150 Gr 30-30 2480 MV) at 2049. while I was wrong about double, standard load show way more energy and sectional density for 30-30 loads.

I went thru the data in my streloc app and you literally picked the lowest listed velocity for x39 and the highest for the 30-30.
Most x39 is 2350 or 2400 with ~123gr and no other 30-30 load breaks 2400.
Even at that the 150@2480 load is down to 1059 ft lbs at 200 and the 123gr@2350 SST has 930 Ft Lbs. Taking into account that 30-30 published velocities are 24" and X39 are 20" and in most applications with factory ammo out where the bullets hit the deer it's a lot closer than double or even enough to be called a lot.

 

[daniel craig]

I agree. I guess what I was really getting at is how much longer is the shot going to be with a bolt vs semi auto and could you milk more range hand loading.

Eh that really depends. It's a big bullet going relatively slowly. A bolt action might give you a longer barrel than that which you find on an AK (but perhaps not longer than an sks barrel) but I highly doubt a longer barrel of the typical lengths bolt guns are made, is really going to change the ballistics of the round all that much. I'd even go so far as to argue that past 200 yards, your shooting ability is going to matter more in this round than barrel length.

 

[someguy2800]

Yeah show what factory load that is. Oh yeah, you don't believe in SAAMI. I hope you don't hurt yourself. You can do that with any cartridge load it beyond SAAMI spec. Not sure that is a legit handload either. I did check at ammo.com. I was wrong standard 123 gr x39 ME is 1445. Me 0f 165 gr 30-30 is 2049. so i had the wrong numbers But your numbers are not in spec at all.

Nice try but those are both book loads from hodgdon using CFE BLk for 7.62x39 and lever evolution for 30/30.

 

[d2wing]

Nice try but those are both book loads from hodgdon using CFE BLk for 7.62x39 and lever evolution for 30/30.

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Ok, I am wondering why with so much more capacity and powder they have the same velocity. Suppose you load them to the same pressure. You got me. But the OP still isn't gaining much over factory loads even if he matches the 30-30. That's a short range cartridge too. If he is going to buy a new rifle and reload for it he would be much better off with any of wide selection of ammo to gain range and power.

 

[Beck]

The 30-30 has about double that energy and greater sectional density. Similar trajectory but not lethality at least with factory loads.

Not hardly. You and many others weighing in on this thread are just passing along old outdated uninformed myth about x39.

When comparing 7.62x39 with 30-30, which is a fine cartridge, the barrel length used for 30-30 velocity is 24-inch according to SAAMI standards. That's what ammo makers are referencing when you see 30-30 velocities typically at 2390 to 2410 or there abouts with a 150gr bullet.

When looking at real field data of the rifles actually used over many decades, most people prefer lever guns with 20-inch or less barrel length for 30-30. Many people prefer the 16-inch Trapper style. With a 20-inch barrel you're lucky to reach 2250 fps with 150gr 30-30 factory loads. With that cartridge 4 or more inches of barrel makes a significant difference

Compare that to the 7.62x39 150gr Corbon load, which is sending a soft point spritzer with much higher BC at 2300 fps from a 20-inch barrel. That round leaves my 18.5-inch barrel Ruger Mini-30 between 2270ish to 2290 fps. It starts out faster right out of the muzzle and maintains better trajectory and velocity due to the high BC. Even if it were a little slower the high BC pointed soft point would overtake typical factory 30-30 rounds within 20 to 30 yards and continue to leave the 30-30 bullet in the dust.

According to the Speer tech I spoke with on several occasions while designing my own version of the Corbon factory load, the speer bullet I use has a BC of between .328 and .350 at 7.62x39 velocities. Good luck finding a 30-30 bullet with that kind of performance.

Sure, a guy can use the same Speer bullet for 30-30 handloads in a lever gun, but he'll have 2 rounds, one in the tube and one in the chamber. I have 20 rounds, or 30 if I like in my Mini-30. Now I'm not going hunting with a 20-round magazine. I'm addressing the versatility of the Mini-30 in this case for both hunting deer and HD/SD.

As I correctly stated before, 7.62x39 can equal or surpass 30-30 Win. I love 30-30 Win. It's been a popular cartridge for over 100 years for good reason. If you dismiss 7.62x39, you can dismiss 30-30 as well.

As I stated before, Bill Ruger and his design team saw the potential of 7.62x39 to use the Mini-14 format to design a semiauto 30-30, and that's exactly what they did. About 35 years since the Mini-30 was introduced there's a sky high pile of deer and other medium size game taken with the Mini-30 and many other firearms chambered in 7.62x39 at close to medium ranges.

I have my mini-30 zeroed at 200 yards. My point blank is 235 yards. For most loads of any bullet weight 125gr and above, the bullet doesn't rise or fall more then 3 inches out to 235 yards. At 200 yards the Corbon 150gr load is hitting with over 1100 foot-lbs of energy. At 235 yards it's still above 1000 foot-lbs. And it does better than that in my 22-inch barrel CZ 527.

I don't have much if any reason at all to take dear out that far, but I know that I can with x39. I wouldn't dare try it with a lever gun in 30-30. I'm not bashing 30-30. It is what it is, just like x39 is what it is. Both ideal for close to medium range hunting of medium game up to 300 lbs.

I use three different 150gr projectiles for my x39 handloads. The one I'm talking about here is Speer #2217 with a minimum BC of .328 and a sectional density of .222.

 

[citizenconn]

As I correctly stated before, 7.62x39 can equal or surpass 30-30 Win. I love 30-30 Win.

I just have not seen that in the field when comparing close to apples to apples rounds. I'm a pretty big 7.62x39 fan in ARs and in bolt action rifles. Not a fan of the AK platform particularly. I am also a big 30-30 enthusiast.

A handloader can up or download almost any two rounds to achieve certain data points by using particular length barrels that skews normal ballistics for those rounds.

If you are happy with the data you are getting, more power to you. Its just not the data I am normally seeing. Respectfully.