McCain to propose fining illegal immigrants, but let them stay
- Thread starter Desertdog
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While illegals pay small amounts of tax (some do) the services they receive
out weight the amounts, in 2002 illegals cost to the American taxpayer was
68 billion.
Illegals are a work force for the wealthy and subsidized by the American taxpayer, this increased burden is driving up medical cost to the point that
many lower income working poor americans cannot or ever will have health
care.
The idea is not where they come from it is the numbers the idea our country
can "support" the world in services doesnt fly in modern times, yes it would
be good if no kid went to bed hungry in the world, no one without a job,
however if we continue on the path we are on now then our standard of
living will also drop. The continue flow of people across our borders is hurting
the average joe American, the wealthy gain as do the wealthy in Mexico. :banghead:
Maybe so. Maybe not. I'm for sensible illegal immigration reform. I get tired of thinly veiled bigoted responces (like crapping out babies) because these are human beings not fecal matter. And statements of welfare that imply Food Stamps and Income Support that even anti-immigrant (regardless of legality) organizations like FAIR don't support. I do however notice FAIR has a tendency to include the cost of US Citizens that are dependents of non-US Citizens as a cost of non-US Citizens. So some of their data, IMO, is suspect. As a former Texas Department of Human Services worker, the welfare / social services benefit bugs me because it's not true.
shermacman
Member
- Joined
- Dec 30, 2002
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- 1,751
OK Mike, I'll bite, who are you just trying to be nice to?
This is from your earlier post, the one you edited out:
The illegals are clearly being exploited for their cheap labor, so you aren't being nice to them.
The illegals are driving down the wages of legitimate working Americans, so you aren't being nice to them.
So, who is it that you are being nice to, Mike?
This is from your earlier post, the one you edited out:
So you are not trying to be nice to us, obviously.
The illegals are clearly being exploited for their cheap labor, so you aren't being nice to them.
The illegals are driving down the wages of legitimate working Americans, so you aren't being nice to them.
So, who is it that you are being nice to, Mike?
It's pretty straight foward that I edited for name calling.
If the labor and wages were so bad then they wouldn't come here.
By in large they do jobs that Americans won't do or would do for such a large price that it would lead to price increases for Americans or not be done at all.
It sounds like you are the one who doesn't want to be nice to either the American citizen or the illegal immigrant.
This is kind of pointless. I'm not going to change closed minds. Especially those firmly entrenched in the camp of my edited comments.
I would like to find some un-biased sources on the net cost from like GOA. As maybe wingman is right.
It's obvious that some even in our own party (assuming that most here are Republican) disagree with cost / benefit analysis. I'm not changing sides on this issue with my Party yet. Besides, ethically, with so many seemingly in the camp of my edited comments, I can't with clean conscious support the more rabid anti-immigration, legal or illegal, movements.
If the labor and wages were so bad then they wouldn't come here.
By in large they do jobs that Americans won't do or would do for such a large price that it would lead to price increases for Americans or not be done at all.
It sounds like you are the one who doesn't want to be nice to either the American citizen or the illegal immigrant.
This is kind of pointless. I'm not going to change closed minds. Especially those firmly entrenched in the camp of my edited comments.
I would like to find some un-biased sources on the net cost from like GOA. As maybe wingman is right.
It's obvious that some even in our own party (assuming that most here are Republican) disagree with cost / benefit analysis. I'm not changing sides on this issue with my Party yet. Besides, ethically, with so many seemingly in the camp of my edited comments, I can't with clean conscious support the more rabid anti-immigration, legal or illegal, movements.
Lone_Gunman
Member
What are you talking about?
There is indeed a program that covers illegal aliens, I have been paid through it to provide services to illegals.
What indigent care program are you talking about?
There are many hidden costs. For example, if an illegal has a baby on US soil (and she can't be turned down at an ER) the baby, know as an 'anchor baby', is an automatic Us citizen which means that the mother can't be deported. Consequently, the mother and baby are now eligable for a myriad of welfare bennies including housing, medicare, food stamps and much more.
Biker
Biker
Silver Bullet
Member
"fine them but let them stay" just means they will be allowed to buy their way in.
Silver Bullet
Member
Since Kennedy is a party to this, how about setting up busses at the border and send half of them to Boston ?
heres an novel idea....how about actually fining the employers that hire them and not just small change...how about actually enforcing it.
seems to me its being ENCOURAGED to come across the border these days by business, not just mexicans but from many countries..nannies on temp visas,construction workers,resteraunt workers,major chair dept store workers...the ecomony aint looking great these days either from real numbers of jobless(not just those that filed for unenjoyment benefits) and falling profits-Ohio has lost a great portion of jobs-cities are going broke and laying off safty forces,that is what concerns me as it should concern the govt, not only the loss of jobs but also the portion of illegals that are getting through with possable ill intentions that nobody knows about...all in the name of business venture.
theres going to be a greater need than just a "band-aid" for this problem.
just my .02 cents worth.
seems to me its being ENCOURAGED to come across the border these days by business, not just mexicans but from many countries..nannies on temp visas,construction workers,resteraunt workers,major chair dept store workers...the ecomony aint looking great these days either from real numbers of jobless(not just those that filed for unenjoyment benefits) and falling profits-Ohio has lost a great portion of jobs-cities are going broke and laying off safty forces,that is what concerns me as it should concern the govt, not only the loss of jobs but also the portion of illegals that are getting through with possable ill intentions that nobody knows about...all in the name of business venture.
theres going to be a greater need than just a "band-aid" for this problem.
just my .02 cents worth.
Silver Bullet
Member
You're right, you can't stop the supply if there is a demand; the solution is to remove the demand.
However, I'm not sure that this will work, because I suspect there are thousands of small-time employers (yard maintenance, produce pickers, etc.) as opposed to just a few big-time employers easy to spot and easy to step on.
Kinda like illicit drugs; it would be better to remove the demand, but that means finding and arresting thousands (millions) of drug buyers; it might be impossible.
Then again, it's more than we're doing now, so maybe it's a start.
ravinraven
Member
Relax, folks!
So we're upset about illegals on this thread. We were upset about Hanoi Jane walking on another thread. We're upset about gun grabbers on most threads. We are upset about the declining education system. We are upset about the take over of university education by the multi-culturalists [read anti-culturalists]. We scream about the ACLU's war against Christmas and any kind of a personal values system. Relax! All these things we are upset about are just parts of the Great American Suicide Plan [GASP] Pretty soon we'll GASP our last. So relax. You don't want to die all tensed up now, do you?
rr
So we're upset about illegals on this thread. We were upset about Hanoi Jane walking on another thread. We're upset about gun grabbers on most threads. We are upset about the declining education system. We are upset about the take over of university education by the multi-culturalists [read anti-culturalists]. We scream about the ACLU's war against Christmas and any kind of a personal values system. Relax! All these things we are upset about are just parts of the Great American Suicide Plan [GASP] Pretty soon we'll GASP our last. So relax. You don't want to die all tensed up now, do you?
rr
As what, a Democrat? He's consistently alienating himself from Republicans, and the Democrats are going to vote Democrat, not liberal Republican.
I don't see McCain having a chance of wining a Republican primary, unless Democrats are voting in the Republican primary.
He's also appealing to the illegal alien lobby, and that lobby is losing strength due to a popular uprising against illegal immigration.
Sean Smith
Member
- Joined
- Dec 28, 2002
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- 4,925
Let me get this straight, they are going to fine people who came here BECAUSE THEY HAVE NO MONEY?!?!?
Back on Topic:
It sounds like an idea. Sometimes throwing an outragous idea out on the table gets people to think of alternatives.
Do I consider illegal immigration bad? Yes. Felony bad? Not necessarily, but by coming up illegally they're predisposed not to use our legal system, so they're more at risk of being a criminal, or feeding and protecting the (felony level)criminals.
The whole problem is that these people can't come up here legally without jumping through loopholes that would confound a lawyer. I have a friend who's a morman. He went down to Mexico for mission and found himself a wife there. Now they're not marrying just to let her come up, but the process still took more than a year!
I would actually consider the fine not a bad idea if they impliment a few other parts:
A: Reopen immigration. Open up 3-4 million* unskilled worker immigration permits a year. Fee? Something like $20 american.
B: make the fine something like 100X the cost of the permit. Can't pay? Get sent home. ($20 permit=$2,000 fine)
C: Fine still doesn't let you stay here if you're otherwise ineligable for the permit.
D: Lock down the border.
E: Cancel the fine and make it a felony/deportion with ineligability for legal permit after 5-10 years*
*Wild Ass Guess, actual number up to debate by learned and polite individuals
It sounds like an idea. Sometimes throwing an outragous idea out on the table gets people to think of alternatives.
Do I consider illegal immigration bad? Yes. Felony bad? Not necessarily, but by coming up illegally they're predisposed not to use our legal system, so they're more at risk of being a criminal, or feeding and protecting the (felony level)criminals.
The whole problem is that these people can't come up here legally without jumping through loopholes that would confound a lawyer. I have a friend who's a morman. He went down to Mexico for mission and found himself a wife there. Now they're not marrying just to let her come up, but the process still took more than a year!
I would actually consider the fine not a bad idea if they impliment a few other parts:
A: Reopen immigration. Open up 3-4 million* unskilled worker immigration permits a year. Fee? Something like $20 american.
B: make the fine something like 100X the cost of the permit. Can't pay? Get sent home. ($20 permit=$2,000 fine)
C: Fine still doesn't let you stay here if you're otherwise ineligable for the permit.
D: Lock down the border.
E: Cancel the fine and make it a felony/deportion with ineligability for legal permit after 5-10 years*
*Wild Ass Guess, actual number up to debate by learned and polite individuals
longeyes
member
Over and over we are told the future is about high-tech and education, high-tech and educatrion. Asia--those smart Indians and Chinese--reportedly pose a serious threat for American hegemony in the 21st century. Okay...
But for some reason we have a lust to import millions of people with fifth-grade educations? Something wrong with this picture?
We lack engineers and scientists and inventors, not people to work in car washes and restaurants. I think we are full up already on that group.
Americans are finally waking up to what's going on, even if they haven't quite yet pieced together the full horror of the economic picture and who's in cahoorts with whom. A small group is benefiting and they do not care whether they turn America upside-down in the process so long as they keep their own cash-flow intact. A bunch of politicians are in their pocket, bought and sold.
Problem is, we are going to need to act fast and with determination. Things have a built-in momentum.
But for some reason we have a lust to import millions of people with fifth-grade educations? Something wrong with this picture?
We lack engineers and scientists and inventors, not people to work in car washes and restaurants. I think we are full up already on that group.
Americans are finally waking up to what's going on, even if they haven't quite yet pieced together the full horror of the economic picture and who's in cahoorts with whom. A small group is benefiting and they do not care whether they turn America upside-down in the process so long as they keep their own cash-flow intact. A bunch of politicians are in their pocket, bought and sold.
Problem is, we are going to need to act fast and with determination. Things have a built-in momentum.
And yet, obviously, there's a demand for these workers. This country was founded by many, at least initially, unskilled workers. Sure, put policies in place to encourage skilled workers, but we also need to let in unskilled.
And no, we aren't full up on limited-skill jobs. If anything else, it means that a highly educated(relativly) american has to take on that grunt work.
And no, we aren't full up on limited-skill jobs. If anything else, it means that a highly educated(relativly) american has to take on that grunt work.
odysseus
Member
...fine someone who cannot pay the fine, and then what jail them for failing to pay? More drain on the system and tax payers?
DRZinn
Member
Anchor babies who would not have been born here but as a result of illegal immigration are not part of the cost of that illegal immigration??
I think the part about who is a citizen needs to be revised to read, "or born in the United States to a mother who is here legally."
longeyes
member
In the new "Service Economy" model for America, yeah, we need all the unskilled workers we can get. We can outsource our technology needs to India and China. And, hey, whatever happened to robots...? Better to have flesh & blood robots, I guess, huh? Robots don't vote Democratic or Socialist. And who says this country was founded by unskilled workers? What's certainly true is that this country's prosperity is founded not on a huge pool of unskilled workers but freedom and technological prowess, coupled with an abundance of natural resources and general slaughters devastating economic competitors.
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