Me or the gun....opinions please

[miko912]

I realize without actually watching me shoot, any advise offered will be mostly opinion, but that's fine for now. I'm somewhat new to handguns (almost two years) and only have two(so far), a CZ 75B bought new, and a S&W 6906 police trade-in bought used. My question is this.... is the larger size, weight and barrel length of the CZ the reason I shoot more accurately with it, or is it inherently a more accurate pistol? At 7-10 yds I can usually keep the shots within 3-4 inches or so offhand with the CZ, but with the Smith at the same distance, using the same ammo etc., I can just about keep them inside 7-8 inches, and I tend to shoot a bit low. They are both 9mm and recoil isn't significant in either. I try to keep my grip consistent, and the sights are very similar. Any suggestions as to what I could do to improve with the S&W? I'd like it to be my carry piece but don't feel as confidant with it as I'd like.


Sincerely,
Miko

 

[stans]

A number of things make a pistol accurate. Quality of the barrel, fit of the barrel at lock up, trigger pull, ammo, sights, and how well the pistol fits your hand.

 

[pauli]

you can answer the mechanical accuracy side of the question pretty darn quick by firing from a benchrest...

 

[Jim Watson]

Either gun is capable of better accuracy than that. You are just a little worse with the S&W than the CZ.
Training and practice.

 

[Standing Wolf]

It's you.

There's a 99% chance my guess is correct because it's almost always the shooter, not the gun.

You'd have to use a Ransom Rest to test each gun to determine which is inherently more accurate. It may well be that the stocks on one aren't well suited to your hand, or the ammunition you're using in one is flaky, or you have a subtle preference for one over the other, or...

My best advice would be to leave the center fire pistols in the safe awhile, and start working on accuracy in a serious way with a .22 long rifle hand gun. Once you've got that nailed down fairly solidly, center fire accuracy will follow along in good order. It's much easier for the vast majority of shooters to develop accuracy with a .22.

 

[Sunray]

It's highly likely that the CZ just fits your hand better. Try changing the grips on the Smith.

 

[HSMITH]

Both guns are capable of 1" groups at 15 yards, guaranteed. The CZ is going to be easier to get them with quickly due to a crisper SA with less overtravel. The Smith auto's have a funky SA trigger that takes some getting used to, notice I didn't say the Smith is hard to shoot, I just said it is different. I never could get to like a Smith auto personally, but they do shoot nicely and are plenty accurate.

 

[rde]

I shot low with the 6906 when I first got mine. Found 2 things. First, because I was use to physically larger hand gun I was anticipating recoil when I switched from the larger gun to the smaller 6906. Still do this occastionally. Shoot much better with it when it is the only gun I shoot that day. Second, mine seems to shoot a little lower with 115 grain ammo than with 124 grain ammo. Don't know why. Just does. At first I got frustrated but taking advice from here I took it out to the range, the only gun to the range, shot from a rest for a few mags using 124 grain, and quickly found that it was....me.

 

[miko912]

Thanks folks...

I appreciate the honest quick responses. To clarify, I didn't mean to sound like I'm looking to blame the gun. I've definately got a long way to go in the accuracy dept. with either gun as I don't claim to have the steadiest hands. I'm working on that one. The Smith doesn't feel bad in my hands, just different. I think the CZ fits me better, seems to point more naturally for ME. I'd like to try a compact CZ to see if I'm having a problem with smaller lighter guns in general, or is it more of a fit issue. I think all the above advice is worth a hard look, especially the idea of practicing with a .22. It's also quite possible that I'm anticipating recoil with the Smith as I noticed my wife was flinching more with it than the CZ. Practice seems to be the answer.....guess I just had to hear it from Y'all. I don't get to the range as much as I'd like, hoping to change that soon. Thanks again.


Miko

 

[Amish_Bill]

Let me guess - you shoot the 6906 down and to the left?
(it's what I did with mine at anyting less than a snail's pace)

FWIW, I was never able to get good with my 6906's trigger. The down & left shift was so bad under stress conditions that it started giving me nightmares. (literal nightmares) I sold it that month.

 

[Jim Watson]

"I think all the above advice is worth a hard look, especially the idea of practicing with a .22."

CZ makes a .22 conversion for the 75, the Kadet. Mine was $200 or so. You will eventually save the price of the conversion in ammo, but the improvement in accuracy from lighter recoil will show up pretty soon.

 

[Art Eatman]

"Down and to the left" is usually caused by "wristing". Instead of pulling the trigger with motion only in the trigger finger, the whole hand is squeezed.

Try this: Watch the inner muscle of your forearm with the arm extended. Make a trigger-pulling motion with only the trigger finger. Then, try it while squeezing the other fingers as well.

The first instance, there's negligible muscle movement. In the second, you can see the flexing of the muscle.

That throws your shot down and left.

, Art

 

[GigaBuist]

Buy that Kadet kit!

I can't believe how many times I had to see members on this board preach to new shooters to get a .22LR handgun to start with before I went and did it myself. I was shooting 'OK' with my handguns for quite some time but it all went to pot in a week and it was getting EXPENSIVE trying to correct the problems blasting .40S&W down range for an hour at a time.

So, I got a .22LR. I was shooting the .22LR just like I was the bigger guns. Too high. Over and over again -- pulling shots too high! I think it might be the best gun purchase I ever made. It's kind of nifty to be able to cram 100 rounds of ammo for a quick range session into your pocket too!

I just might have to get a Kadet kit for my CZ-75B also. Too much darned fun for $8 worth the ammo. Oh, and then a bolt-action .22LR rifle and a semi-auto .22LR rifle. Darned list keeps getting longer and longer.

 

[MtrCty]

Maybe this will help

 

[BigG]

Pistol shooting is an art and requires a lot of attention. Anybody can make bullets come out the end but to hit where you want to takes concentration on lots of fundamentals until they are second nature. The correction target is a good place to start. Also, a known good shot as a coach can point out things you don't notice about yourself. HTH

 

[miko912]

Thanks again! That correction chart looks like it could help...I've been so embarrassed by my shooting recently that I haven't been saving my targets. Time to take a harder look at what the hex I've been doing. Ironic part of all this is that the dealer I buy from is an instructor at the local police academy. Maybe I'll drag him up to the range to take look at what I'm doing wrong. He's a busy guy, but I'll see if he's got the time.


Miko

 

[Mikul]

Guns with longer sight radii (distance from the front sight to the rear) offer a finer sight picture than guns with a short radii. This means that if your front sight is 1mm off to the left at the moment you pull the trigger, the CZ is going to be closer to your point of aim than the S&W due to the CZ's longer sight radius.

 

[Amish_Bill]

For me, it was purely mechanics. The mechanics of where & how my finger bent did not mesh cleanly with the size & spacing of the 6906 trigger. If I didn't pull it in an an-natural way, I could not make it shoot straight.

 

[Werewolf]

My guess is it's you. Especially if you are going from one gun to another on the same day during the same session. Concentration on grip, sight picture and trigger is job 1.

Here's an example from my own experience as to why I believe that.

I own a number of auto-pistols my favorite of which are a CZ-75B SA (.40 S&W) and a Sig P220 (.45ACP).

When I go to the range Most often I will start out shooting the Sig. I can usually keep 7 rounds in a 3" group at 15 yards and on a good day can tear a ragged hole in the paper at that distance. NOTE that I shoot it first.

Next I'll break out the CZ. With it I can always tear a ragged hole in the paper at 15 yards - always - well almost. The CZ is IMHO inherently more accurate than the Sig but my accuracy with the Sig as long as I shoot it first is pretty darn good.

Next I'll switch back to the SIG - The first few mags out of the SIG - no matter what I do I'm lucky if I get 9" groups at 15 yards. Then I'll concentrate real hard on sight picture, grip, trigger etc and I can get the 3" groups with it I normally get.

For what ever reason going from Sig to CZ is not a problem but going from CZ to Sig causes my groups to go to hell in a hand basket.

Even knowing this I still have problems going from the CZ to the SIG and getting good groups right away.

Weird...

 

[Jim March]

Ummm...every once in a while, you'll run across a gun that literally won't shoot worth a dang.

Not often, but...

One of the most common ways it happens is when somebody uses a steel-shafted cleaning rod and screws up the "crown", the end of the barrel where the bullet comes out. Or they drop it nose-first on rocks or something. Either way you get one or more "dings" at the "lip", sometimes severe enough that there's a high spot slitting the bullet jackets clean open as the round goes by. NOT good. Worth visually inspecting and by touch.

Or the thing is just a mutant, something was machined wrong at the factory, it's just...BAD, in any number of ways.

Get somebody GOOD to shoot it, or bench-rest it. Or you'll always have niggling doubts. Once you KNOW the puppy can shoot, you can then focus on yourself .

 

[miko912]

Werewolf...

I wondered about that possibility myself. I put about a thousand rds. through the CZ before I bought the S&W and was pretty comfortable with my progress. My groups were getting a little better and was confidant I was on the right track. My biggest improvement came when I realized I had been closing my left eye when aiming. Anyway when I got the 6906, I shot it exclusively a few times to get used to it. I immediately realized I wasn't doing nearly as well with it as the CZ(relatively speaking). It was then that I started to bring the CZ with me to see if I was losing it altogether or just having a problem with the Smith. I typically shoot the S&W first since it's the one I believe I need the most work with. Then I'll put a couple mags through the CZ just to prove to myself that I can still hit the darn target.

JM....I'm hoping to find somebodywith some skills next trip to the range and see if they have any issues with the gun.....if not maybe they can watch me and help me figure out what I'm doing.

Thanks again all,
Miko

 

[Al Thompson]

May want to check your ammo as well. Over the years I've found that most any ammo loaded with Gold Dots shoots very well. I've also found that some guns hate ball ammo.

FWIW, higher velocity ammo will have a lower POI than slower velocity ammo. The faster bullet simply gets out of the bore sooner that the slower bullet does, thus hitting the target lower.