Mental health and gun violence threads.

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Could someone please explain to me: if there is any evidence that a person is a danger to themselves or others, how do existing laws fail?

Problem is, as in the recent case, if that evidence is ignored by our "protectors", or does not exist, then the "we must do something" crowd is too quick to throw out the Constitution, Due Process, and the Rules Of Evidence for an imagined solution. Much like the Temperance movement deluded themselves into thinking that if alcohol was banned as the "root of all evil" Utopia would result -- instead we got Al Capone and organized crime that we still can't deal with adequately.

This is the purpose for the post and the reason the mods are allowing a more in depth discussion of the topic, even though it's not strictly about the right to keep and bear arms.

Gun owners are being attacked - strongly - on this issue. Every time someone else shoots someone in public, we find ourselves defending the rationale behind "why do you own guns" - even though we didn't do anything wrong. It's a frustrating position to be in.

I own firearms to preserve life, station of life, and society. I own these tools so that someone bigger, or stronger, or a group of people more numerous than I cannot simply come and take away what I love, have worked hard for, or appreciate in my life. This right is guaranteed and recognized not as a constitutional right but, following as the forefathers indicated - it is a basic human right. The 9th amendment goes on to further this and covers "other {unspecified} rights remain that of the people."

The enumeration in the Constitution, of certain rights, shall not be construed to deny or disparage others retained by the people.

The bill of rights nearly didn't make it IN to our form of government because at the time people felt they were implicit rights. But the framers also knew that over time things in society change and evolve, and words come in to use and fall in to disuse, even slowly change meaning. The 9th is a catch all, a disclaimer that says "these aren't ALL of your rights" - for to record all of our basic human rights would likely take more paper or time than they had available at the time. :)

The right to privacy of our mind, the right to have freewill, is of utmost importance to basic human rights. The constitution itself was very clear on this indicating that people should be judged by their actions - not their intent! It goes on to further describe other limitations; that the government has ONE chance at judging a person by their actions, that people are not subject to generalized search and seizure, how all actions are subject to due process, etc.

Mandatory "Mental health testing" to qualify for the "permission" to exercise a constitutionally guaranteed right is an affront to our very way of life, and goes against the core beliefs of our society. It places the assumption of guilt on to a person, who must then prove "hey I'm an OK guy".

Yet gun owners have to prove they are "an OK guy" before owning a gun on an increasing basis; people in some states still have to "prove" they have a need for it before being "permitted" to carry in public, and so on. The assumption of guilt has been presumed, incorrectly, placing the burden of proving innocence on those who want to exercise what is a fundamental human right.

I'm not sorry to say that I, and all others, have a right to privacy of our minds. The fact is, in the increasingly modern surveillance society, our thoughts are one of the few remaining private places available to a person.

Back to the original topic; this means that what I term as "apex predators" (those inflicting force of will on others without their consent, physically or otherwise) may gain access to arms. But time has shown they will do so anyway regardless of what safeguards we take. The only guaranteed way to eliminate the use of guns as tools to mass murder is to eliminate the guns completely from society.

But our society is duplicitous. The same people who think you should submit to mental health screening to exercise a right also generally support state-sponsored killing, or an elite class of knights in shining armor who are supposed to protect everyone else from the depravity of evil.

They've only shifted the burden of predator on to someone else.

Those people have already decided that THEY do not want to participate as a predator and are content with becoming simply prey. They want to rely on other predators to protect them, essentially resigning themselves to the role of herd animals (to continue the analogy).

Our society is still dominated by force of arms, military might, and "the way of the gun". Our society spends more money on guns, bombs, bullets, and inventing new ways of killing people than the next 9 largest "defense" spenders on the planet. Yet the same people who approve of this feel that you, as an individual, should take no role in protecting yourselves, because you might do something wrong.

They don't scream and cry when a drone "accidentally" (negligently) targets a wedding overseas and kills dozens of innocent men, women, and children. There's no massive public outcry demanding the irresponsible government entrusted with our weapons of mass destruction reign them in, destroy them, dismantle them.

Why? Because they NEED that apex predator protecting them. They have submitted and given up the right to do it for themselves.

As Sam pointed out in an earlier post, some people are "just wired wrong." We've all seen this. We've all read about it.

My daughter (in her innocence) believed that there are no evil people on the planet, that everyone was "salvageable", and that every evil person had a spark of good in them that could be used to leverage their humanity and turn them to good. That sounds great and makes for good reading in a "sparkly vampire novel" but the reality is there ARE evil people, and we DO need to protect ourselves from the remote possibility of our early termination by another apex predator. The things predators have been shown to do are horrendous to consider, and far too varied to go in to here, but there's sufficient proof in the concept of "evil" (or if you prefer, bad wiring) to compel me to study on the art of violence to protect myself.

You want to solve the problem of "mass public violence", the fundamental responsibility needs to shift from the public, to the private person, so that apex predator instincts that manifest themselves abruptly, can be dealt with abruptly.

Something that every single public shooting has in common? Force of will.

If the countering force (which is essentially, fear conditioning) is insufficient to keep the person's predator instincts "in check", the equation becomes unbalanced, and it takes violent action to remove them from society.

On the medicine theory subscribers; If you are going to look at SSRI's as a causal effect, study "how does the medicine affect or alter a person's fear / conditioned responses."

One thing I've learned over the years of high-risk activity (motorcycle riding, martial arts combat, etc) is a person can consciously control and utilize their fear response. I've also seen where that response is affected directly by alcohol or other inhibitors.

Keep in mind the basis behind this thought is the simple rationale that "some people are alive today only because it is illegal to kill them."

Think about that statement for a moment; the sole reason people choose not to do certain actions is because they are afraid of the resulting outcome. (Keep in mind there is a forked discussion at this point, about "normal" people whose brains can accept conditioned fear responses and weigh action against result, and those brains which are malformed and develop without the ability to do so; e.g. the nastiest of the evil serial killers/etc).

Now, stop and think about how arrogant our society is, having mastered everything thrown at us over the years as the dominant society on the planet.

If the only thing keeping our apex predator instincts from manifesting is our conditioned responses and fear ... what happens if those checks and balances in our brains are dispelled?

(I have more insight on this later, as have witnessed first hand two people undergo psychological "breaks". While the causal effects were different the end result was a loss of fear of the outcome of their actions, and both individuals went violent.)
 
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Agreed. Never mind the fact that we're doing at a much lower rate than ever.
I recently heard/ read that more people were killed in The 20th century than in the previous 1000 years. I have little problem believing him when you take into mind Things like
1911: Chinese Revolution (2.4 million)
1914-18: World War I (20 million)
1917-21: Soviet revolution (5 million)
1928-37: Chinese civil war (2 million)
1931: Japanese Manchurian War (1.1 million)
1932-33: Soviet Union vs Ukraine (10 million)
1936-37: Stalin's purges (13 million)
1939-45: World War II (55 million) including holocaust and Chinese revolution
1949-50: Mainland China vs Tibet (1,200,000)
1950-53: Korean war (3 million)
1958-61: Mao's "Great Leap Forward" (38 million)
1964-73: USA-Vietnam war (3 million)
1966-69: Mao's "Cultural Revolution" (11 million)
1974-91: Ethiopian civil war (1,000,000)
1975-78: Menghitsu, Ethiopia (1.5 million)
1975-79: Khmer Rouge, Cambodia (1.7 million)
1979-88: the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan (1.3 million)
1983-2002: Sudanese civil war (2 million)
1998-: Congo/Zaire's war - Rwanda and Uganda vs Zimbabwe, Angola and Namibia (3.8 million)


EDIT:

I strongly disagree here. Religion is not a "civilizing influence" by and large - it has actually been one of the most destructive forces the world has ever seen. Crusades, inquisition, various wars that to this day are causing massive loss of life, starvation, and acts of unbelievable cruelty (RE: Syria).
If just like to point out almost none of the above (if any) we're for reglious reasons. In fact the big ones..... Hitler, Stalin, and the Chinese were commited by atheistic regims partly to purge religion. I've also never heard of a atheist adoption agency, orphanage, hospital. Ect. ect. To say religion isn't a potentially civilizing influence is to deny facts
 
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This is a refreshing thread and hypothesis, and worthy of discussion.

Man is not biologically an apex predator. Picture a naked, weaponless human in a jungle and you are looking at some other animal's lunch. It would be interesting to learn if our remote ancestors used their first weapons, rocks, clubs, pointed sticks, etc. defensively or offensively. I suspect groups of Homo habilis huddled to consider the same concerns over use and misuse of their tools. Until they had tools/weapons, early humans might still have killed each other for sociological reasons, and probably killed other smaller animals for food, but it's hard for me to envision them as apex predators by their nature.

Man can become an apex predator because his brain allows him to make weapons that can kill anything else. Armed man can choose to be a predator or not, but in the case of human beings, I think it is the weapon that allows the choice, rather than being an intrinsic characteristic of the organism, like the fangs and claws of the grizzly, or the wings and talons of a raptor.

Perhaps it is an admiration and inborn fear of the natural apex predators that make us want to be as dominant as they are.

In any case, every animal species kills its own kind, whether they are predators or not. Buck deer kill each other over mates and territory, as do fish, tortoises, etc. Humans will kill humans as long as there are humans, I have no doubt. This is why laws aimed at eliminating homicide are doomed. The only thing that has changed since Col. Colt made all men equal is that muscle size is not the determining factor in the outcome of the conflict.
 
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Id suggest reading the books of LTC Dave Grossman; On Killing(2009 ed) & On Combat.
Grossman(a enlisted paratrooper who became a US Army officer & PhD) goes into detail about human nature & the act of killing.
I don't agree with all of Grossman's points/material but he does offer some insight.

I don't agree with Grossman either. I'd reccommend checking out what reviewers had to say on Amazon about 'SLA' Marshall and some of Grossman's other sources before you spend money on his book ... and then buy it used if you do buy it (http://www.amazon.com/On-Killing-Ps...TF8&qid=1402496040&sr=8-1&keywords=on+killing).
 
If you have a child who has mental issues, what in the name of heaven are they doing anyware near him, and he them? This kid was a documented mental case, why didn't his parents have a good gun safe, "if they wanted to keep guns in the house". Instead of something he and anyone with a few minutes and a crowbar could open.
Are people really this self deluded that they think things like this aren't going to happen to their family, even though they have all of the parts.
It reminds me of people who only carry when they think something might happen. If your kid is a little off, you don't make it possible for him to get at your guns.
It isn't that hard to do.
 
This is a refreshing thread and hypothesis, and worthy of discussion.

Man is not biologically an apex predator. Picture a naked, weaponless human in a jungle and you are looking at some other animal's lunch. It would be interesting to learn if our remote ancestors used their first weapons, rocks, clubs, pointed sticks, etc. defensively or offensively. I suspect groups of Homo habilis huddled to consider the same concerns over use and misuse of their tools. Until they had tools/weapons, early humans might still have killed each other for sociological reasons, and probably killed other smaller animals for food, but it's hard for me to envision them as apex predators by their nature.

Man can become an apex predator because his brain allows him to make weapons that can kill anything else. Armed man can choose to be a predator or not, but in the case of human beings, I think it is the weapon that allows the choice, rather than being an intrinsic characteristic of the organism, like the fangs and claws of the grizzly, or the wings and talons of a raptor.

Well the ultimate predator in the world isn't standing on two or four legs, or slithering around in a bush; it's time. It gets everything in the end. :)

Even today with all of our tools, we fall prey to insects, snake bites, and bad luck. But so do other animals. It's our cunning that places humans at the top of the food chain; but moreover, our capacity to increase our knowledge from one generation to the next. We consistently and continually push the very barriers of what our minds can do - if we did not, we'd still be swinging from trees hurling rocks and sticks at fanged/clawed predators down below us. (depending on what world view one subscribes to, that picture may vary.)

We're an apex predator not just in whatever environmental role we find ourselves, but in EVERY environment and concept on a planetary scale. We've not only beat out the four legged and winged creatures that could rip us apart in nature, we've made them our PETS. We used to succumb to bacterial infection with a scrape out in the woods; today we engineer bacteria to do our bidding. We have even changed deserts which have been the downfall of civilizations (pueblo indians), to major metropolitan areas (parts of Nevada, Arizona, etc). If we want to live somewhere we'll MAKE it possible.

We're apex predators not just on a biological sense, rising to a position of every other animal on the planet, but we've also conquered nature itself, sending people to the moon, sending probes out of our solar system, putting machines on other planets, predicting weather patterns, and splitting atoms to generate energy or destroy other humans by the hundreds of thousands. We make it a daily part of our lives to conquer everything we come across. We're not content, in our "wiring", to sit by and simply leave well enough alone.

My eldest son, by the time he was in high school, contained knowledge in his mind that would have allowed him to conquer the world just a few hundred years ago. But .. it's not two hundred years ago, it's today, and he'll be challenged enough to conquer a spot in a decent university.

We're apex predators, not just of the animal kingdom, but of the very fabric of reality and nature.

Perhaps it is an admiration and inborn fear of the natural apex predators that make us want to be as dominant as they are.

No, it's our desire to "Play God" that puts us where we are at, our capability to pass abstract concepts from one generation to the next which makes it possible; and we are quite fearsome in our role.

We routinely - as a civilization, as individuals - destroy whatever we feel like without any compassion or remorse to ensure our place is maintained. Religions destroy other religions, nation states destroy other nation states; we are unique in our ability to take an abstract concept and use it as an excuse to destroy other things.

No side is innocent. Just some 70 years ago we Americans did some pretty horrific things on a global scale to assert our dominance. And today that same civilization, that same government, which just a blink of an eye ago (in the scale of time), that was willing and able to kill tens of thousands of other humans in a single flash by broiling them with a nuclear blast, not once, but twice, has turned on it's own people saying "we don't trust you with weapons of mass destruction that can hold 30 tiny projectiles of inert metal and smokeless powder."

Three generations and our society has been quelled by that same power, that same flex of the muscles, saying - (essentially) - to us, the people that created this machine, that "we're going to do whatever we damn well feel like and you can't stop us because we have all the really big guns, we control your life through our economy, and if you step out of line we'll lock you up and throw away the key; or kill you and ruin your family."

The issue relevant to this discussion is arms, and survival, and how it relates to the human conscience.

To the point you raised - "Perhaps it is an admiration and inborn fear of the natural apex predators that make us want to be as dominant as they are.", consider exactly what the natural apex predators are today, and what they've become.

For the human mind that is capable of inventing tools that can wipe all life from the planet with a push of a button (literally), I believe that some people are not content to hand all control of their life over to the powers that be.

Call it "bad wiring", or whatever, but the fact is our society is turning the screws down tight enough on ANY adverse (not socially acceptable) behavior that people are snapping, whether it is speech, or colorful ideas, or our ability to own certain weapons for defensive purposes.

The core of the issue is our choices are being removed, and not everyone can be the same as everyone else. This is fueling that desire to be unique, and individual, and some people's minds simply can't handle that.

In any case, every animal species kills its own kind, whether they are predators or not. Buck deer kill each other over mates and territory, as do fish, tortoises, etc. Humans will kill humans as long as there are humans, I have no doubt. This is why laws aimed at eliminating homicide are doomed. The only thing that has changed since Col. Colt made all men equal is that muscle size is not the determining factor in the outcome of the conflict.

Many things have changed since Col. Colt made all men equal.

Man has a capacity to do something other animals cannot - we have mastered so much of nature that we have learned to "Play God". We claim to live in an enlightened, peaceful age, but as another posted out, this has come at a surreal cost to our civilizations and planet, and within recent history hundreds of millions of humans have been killed by the most powerful of our race. Our society is built on the bones of our ancestors.

Our violent nature is unparalleled in the animal kingdom.

And we wring our hands and question that a few individuals can't handle it?

To be honest, I'm very surprised we don't have far more snapping under the artificial pressures we impose on ourselves.
 
The reality Trent, is that you and I are so ultimately close in belief on this one that its almost an argument for telepathy in and of itself.

"Geezerz need excitement
If their lives don't provide them this they incite violence
Common sense simple common sense
Geezerz need excitement
if their lives don't provide them this they incite violence
Common sense simple common sense"

PM sent
 
Rounded corners....Trent

First let me say...excellent post !

We live in a society of conflicting drives. The drive to live our lives as free individuals and the segment that want to round every corner, every edge. That segment in so many ways is trying to account for the deviant or ignorant behavior of many.

Some of it is quite valid and has helped us be a better, safer society. Child proof caps. Safety belts and airbags. Warning labels.

But then the "rounders step in". Caution - surface may be hot. Danger, high voltage. Be politically correct. They are not illegals, they are undocumented. The list goes on...and spills over into handguns. Attempts to round corners. Oh, and look at a handgun manual lately ? 25 page doc, 17 pages of safety warnings, 7 pages of relevant material.

All in the name of protecting us..from ourselves. A utopian society that will never happen because as I have said before, all systems have a deviation from the norm. And that includes people.

Anyway, I wanted to tell you ....great post.
 
We can all try to blame mental health. That has existed for 1000's of years.

Of course, what you meant was that mental illness has been with us for 1,000s of years.

And that's very true. But until fairly recent times most folks with mental illnesses or profound learning disabilities were institutionalized and not roaming the streets. Maybe we are all paying the price for "compassion" and "political correctness".
 
I recently heard/ read that more people were killed in The 20th century than in the previous 1000 years. I have little problem believing him when you take into mind Things like
1911: Chinese Revolution (2.4 million)
1914-18: World War I (20 million)
1917-21: Soviet revolution (5 million)
1928-37: Chinese civil war (2 million)
1931: Japanese Manchurian War (1.1 million)
1932-33: Soviet Union vs Ukraine (10 million)
1936-37: Stalin's purges (13 million)
1939-45: World War II (55 million) including holocaust and Chinese revolution
1949-50: Mainland China vs Tibet (1,200,000)
1950-53: Korean war (3 million)
1958-61: Mao's "Great Leap Forward" (38 million)
1964-73: USA-Vietnam war (3 million)
1966-69: Mao's "Cultural Revolution" (11 million)
1974-91: Ethiopian civil war (1,000,000)
1975-78: Menghitsu, Ethiopia (1.5 million)
1975-79: Khmer Rouge, Cambodia (1.7 million)
1979-88: the Soviet Union invades Afghanistan (1.3 million)
1983-2002: Sudanese civil war (2 million)
1998-: Congo/Zaire's war - Rwanda and Uganda vs Zimbabwe, Angola and Namibia (3.8 million)

If just like to point out almost none of the above (if any) we're for reglious reasons. In fact the big ones..... Hitler, Stalin, and the Chinese were commited by atheistic regims partly to purge religion. I've also never heard of a atheist adoption agency, orphanage, hospital. Ect. ect. To say religion isn't a potentially civilizing influence is to deny facts

"Civilizing" effects of religion or no, every last one of those incidents was committed in the name of civilization. It's worth remembering that nationalism is a form of faith (that your nation is special and superior to others and deserves to inherit the world) that whips up & exploits the exact same emotional forces of young men, for the exact same reasons as ever.

One other theory I've heard on the subject is not related to the 'predator' drive so much as the 'soldier' drive inherent in young men; that these shooters become paranoid/delusional about their relationship with the world due to something going wrong in their head that works to identify those "in the tribe" and "not in the tribe." The result is these guys literally becoming an army unto themselves, at war with the world. A kind of social-variant of dissociative identity disorder. Merely a theory, but one that seems to fit with the feelings of paranoia, persecution, 'delusions of grandeur,' and barbaric ruthlessness these nut-bars always seem to come down with before the conflagration. These guys are also not coincidentally losers/outcasts in most cases; their delusional persecution/paranoia becoming a sort of self-fulfilling prophecy.

Obviously you also have guys like Uncle Fester (AZ) who are of a more 'garden variety' crazy stalker sort that are always fixating and obsessing over things unhealthily; guys like him probably stand the best chance of being caught/stopped since they seem to display early/obvious signs well in advance of their descent into utter madness.

TCB
 
Look at this in the proper perspective: It isn't gun violence, it's violence with guns. That puts it in the all encompassing "violence" arena where it belongs. See how they divide and conquer? They've isolated and highlighted the 'gun' aspect when the meat of the problem is the violence regardless of whomever is perpetrating it or with whatever instrument.

Woody
 
One could also make a very substantial argument that the rearing of the young- or lack therof, in many instances- significantly contributes to the problem at hand.

Failure to correctly instill the values of "civilized" humanity ( insert yours here) or even a basic respect for the sanctity and value of life and a means to address conflict outside of the realm of violence, combined with an unprecedented access to seemingly glorified hyperviolent imagery and storytelling 24/7, further combined with access to superior tools for the quick application of violent tendencies is certain to have an effect.

I'm not saying video games cause "mass" shootings. I'm saying that overexposure to any particular stimuli that titters serotonin levels causes that stimuli to be craved by a trick of physiology only now beginning to be understood.

Further, regardless of the tool used, the core of the issue is violence. Regardless of its method of application. As recent stabbing sprees with fatalities in other countries can attest, the will and most importantly the desire to commit violence on a mass scale is the root of the issue. Indeed, someone with an extremely strong will to do harm is going to do that harm regardless of the tools at hand. In fact, those with the strongest will to do harm aren't swayed by the availability of a certain set of tools at all. I would much rather face a man of poor will armed to the teeth than a man with indomitable will armed only with his mind and hands.

As to the overwhelming disparity of youth in these episodes ? There is a reason the young men are most actively cultivated for war. Some will say it better, but an overdose of testosterone, the feeling of near invulnerability, and the desire to leave as big a mark upon the world as is possible is a cocktail of great power. Be that for good, or evil. Which direction it goes is directly proportional to where it came from. (back to the top )
 
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Trent - do you remember reading/hearing about studies done about 100 years ago of people that lived in the "Hell's Kitchen" area of NYC?
One of the main reasons for the violence the scientists found in those areas was the overcrowding of the people. Their "boundry spaces" were squeezed down so much it was almost as if the people were in straight-jackets. They eventually rebelled accordingly.
Subsequent animal studies, esp. with rats, duplicated the problems and violence witnessed in Hell's Kitchen. Our population density in many areas are reaching those same "saturation points".
Unfortunately, certain individuals, as demonstrated amply with the animal studies, are more susceptible to these space restrictions and "snap" sooner than most.

Unfortunately, it's going to get worse.
 
Being overlooked is the desire on the part of some people to live in a world in which they are 100%, completely safe from any form of misadventure, natural or man-made.

Without statistics to back me up, I'd venture that most violent homocides (read: gun related) are perpetrated by young-ish, minority youths involved in gang culture in disputes over territory, drugs, being "dissed", etc. Throw into the mix, crimes carried out in order to fund a drug habit or just fund a "free-loader, the-world-owes-me-a-living-by-whatever-means-I-chose". Somewhere down the line add in a smattering of "accidental shootings" (kid finds dad's gun and plays with it) and don't forget hunting and gun cleaning accidents and suicides. Finally, throw in some mentally unbalanced people who just "go off" and kill a bunch of children in school, a fellow student, a girl who dumped them, etc.

All in all, you pile up a "scary" number ... but its that last category, the mentally disturbed, which really isn't that large a percentage of the total number ... or so it appears to me.
 
Trent - do you remember reading/hearing about studies done about 100 years ago of people that lived in the "Hell's Kitchen" area of NYC?
One of the main reasons for the violence the scientists found in those areas was the overcrowding of the people. Their "boundry spaces" were squeezed down so much it was almost as if the people were in straight-jackets. They eventually rebelled accordingly.
Subsequent animal studies, esp. with rats, duplicated the problems and violence witnessed in Hell's Kitchen. Our population density in many areas are reaching those same "saturation points".
Unfortunately, certain individuals, as demonstrated amply with the animal studies, are more susceptible to these space restrictions and "snap" sooner than most.

Unfortunately, it's going to get worse.

I don't recall the studies but I can attest FIRST HAND about that phenomenon as I suffer from reclusion myself. I moved out to the country because I was having psychological issues living in a town of approx 35,000 people. Too many neighbors, I was paranoid all the time. Doesn't help that my house was burglarized twice, my garage was hit a couple of times, and my cars broken in to several times. (Or that there were 12 registered sex offenders within three blocks of my house).

I *rarely* go to large cities, and when I do, I can't stay long. Even driving through gives me a serious case of the "heebie jeebies" (there's a technical term for you lol)

The higher the population density the more it takes a negative toll on my mind.

I live a fairly reclusive life out in the country now, gives me time to think, gives me space to breathe. Work from home 90% of the time (go to the office about 4-6 hours a week for meetings).

I have friends over a couple of times a year. I get my socialization fix via social media online, at monthly rifle shoots, and teaching firearms / martial arts classes.

Anyway back to the point; I can absolutely attest to how overcrowding can lead to people "snapping" - I have no doubt that if I were forced to live in the crowded conditions, I myself would "snap" at some point. My psychology simply cannot handle it.

I don't view this as a handicap or shortcoming - in fact, I have come to look at it as the natural state of mind for some people. Some guys just need more room than others. Not everyone was built to be a "social butterfly" or live in tightly crowded conditions. Others deal with it just fine, and even excel and thrive in such conditions.

Fortunately property is cheaper in the country and a guy making a decent wage can still buy quite a spread. :)

I have more to contribute to this thread which is in direct relation to "human violence and guns" but will continue posting this weekend. I'm about to start a 10 hour shift of programming at work and can't let my mood slip in to negative territory before I get underway. (We're working on a universal communication / processing offloader hive system for an expert system; think 'building block of AI', pretty cutting edge stuff.)

This thread is interesting in that thinking about abstract concepts of how the human mind works directly contributes to and coincides with the work I'm doing in my day job right now. Been working on AI fundamentals for a decade and a half now, and finally getting somewhere, since networking technology and processing power are finally "fast enough". Being able to send 20 billion bits per second between compute nodes on a supercomputer helps. So does having supercomputers. (I have about 2x the processing power of Los Alamos circa 2007 at my disposal right now, on clusters I personally own, which are idle at night, that I have free reign on to leverage).

4,392,448.50 MB of free RAM on my Atlas cluster at the moment.. time to get started (Yes, that's 4.3 terabytes of available random access memory).

644 idle Xeon 2.6 ghz cores I can task....

As far as your last line:

Unfortunately, it's going to get worse.

I wholeheartedly agree. I try not to be pessimistic but I can't help but think of the slow, agonizing downfall of the Roman empire that happened so slowly, no one really saw it coming....
 
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With those stats, I'd be paranoid too!
Where I live now is a "dead-end" cluster of 4 streets with ~50 occupied homes. Two streets border a fairly sizeable lake (20+ ac.) with a narrow strip (50-100') of woods behind those on my side of the street. There is a small farm (100-150 ac. ?) on the other side of those woods and across the street from them is a complex of homes and apartments. :mad:

This is an unincorporated part of the county so we can still burn leaves in the fall, see foxes, deer, 'possums, 'coons, hawks, great blue herons, squirrels, coyotes (had one less than 50' from one neighbor's back door!), groundhogs, and more at different times of the year. :eek:

I used to live in a mobile home subdivision (NOT rental lots!) but the lots were only 5K sq. ft. so you can imagine how little "green space" was left after a 12x70 home w/carport were set-up! :barf:

I'd KILL (you know what I mean!) for enough acreage that I could hunt my own property! Little yard or pasture, mixed deciduous trees (I might plant some fruit & nut trees ;) ) with just enough acreage to be able to avoid "incorporation" by encroaching towns.

Oh well - enough daydreaming! :(
 
You point to the past as less gun violence, their was a good bit of gun violence then, I blame it on the fact that their are 100 times more people and we live in a crowded world. Tempers flare easily, take road rage for example. I live in a a very sparcly populated area, County of around 6000 people. In my lifetime (im 65) I can only remember 3 murders in my county. People being shot, yea it happens once every couple of years. Not much cure for overcrowded citys. I think i would be more violent if i had to live there and fight the traffic.
 
Me, I live 4 miles down the county road, 0.6 miles down a common road (I share maintenance with one other family) and a quarter mile down my own access road. I can't see or hear another human being, and I can hunt and fish all I want.

And when I go to town, the town has less than 3,000 people.

I like it like that.
 
Was going to add to this thread this weekend but didn't want to spoil my good mood. :)

The part I was going to add actually keys in with a statement I made earlier about my father, and with this last weekend being Father's Day it was sort of fitting in a way. Each year in the past I've always been pretty depressed on Fathers Day, watching all of the TV commercials and other people praise their fathers, do barbeques or family get-togethers, etc.

The reason I am going to go in to this portion is because some people on OUR side have blamed the "breakdown of the traditional social unit" as a major contributory factor to the spreading trend of violence. I'm going to debunk that theory with a personal story.

My last memory of my father was him being spoon fed in a wheelchair. Earlier in this thread I mentioned he "opted out" but that statement is only partially accurate.

When I was 7 years old, our family life became tenuous. My father lost his good paying job in a factory, my mother took on a side job as a waitress to help make ends meet. I was blissfully unaware of any problems until I suddenly found myself staying in the basement of a strange house. My mother explained to me she left my father.

A couple weeks later my father had me over for pizza. I stayed the night. The next morning he sent me next door to play with my friends. The police surrounded the house.. didn't see him sitting in his car in the driveway.. muted pop.

The next few weeks were a blur.

He didn't die from the 45 caliber bullet that entered behind his ear. It was a black powder handgun that had been hanging on a plate on the wall; his uncle (who felt my father suicidal) had emptied the house of guns a week before and missed it, thinking it ornamental. My father had built it from a kit.

The 45 caliber ball and black powder from contact distance had did a number on his head. Police were already on site 20 feet away when it happened, and we lived two blocks from a major hospital - the only things which "saved" him. He had massive blood loss but transfusions were fast and heavy. The local surgeon got the major leaks sealed up and he was ambulanced to a trauma center. A few days later cranial pressure reached dangerous levels and they removed the entire front portion of his brain. Three years he laid in a coma, before finally opening his eyes. I didn't see him again for 11 years.

When I turned 18 I was finally able to break the family split that had occurred and I visited him (had my own car, and could ignore my family's admonitions). He was a quadraplegic vegetable, living with his mother and father. I learned that for the last decade my father needed constant nursing; he was fed liquid foods from a straw or spoon, he got his diaper changed, and could not speak. His gaze sort of drifted around, never staying on anything too long. He had no use of his arms or legs.

After my third visit to my father, I was banned from visiting by my grandmother and father, who claimed "I upset my father." How this could be was beyond me, since he never showed anything resembling emotion; more likely *I* upset *THEM*. The last visit I made was when my son was born, I took him to meet his grandfather (I was 19). For 17 years they lied to family and friends that he had jumped off of a roof in to a swimming pool and broke his neck. (Suicide was a cardinal sin...apparently lying is not..)

When he finally died they ran an obituary and it omitted my mother, and me. I tried to call the paper after it printed for a "correction" but they didn't allow it. So I took out an eighth page advertisement in the form of an obituary and ran my own visitation. I wanted to see if any of my father's friends would show up - and several did. I heard stories I'd never heard before that day about him, and what he was like. It gave some closing.

In those intervening years that young man my mother had ran off with which started the chain of events turned out to be quite abusive. I dealt with it for 7 years (have the scars to show for it..) before running away - moved in with my maternal grandparents in high school. In those 7 years I got to witness life inside the home of drug dealers. Neither worked, so we lived off public aid and drug money. My grade-school / middle-school days were filled with school, my nights with partying and abuse. They dealt cocaine, pills, and pot - but mostly cocaine - our little basement house was stuffed to the gills with illegal substances.

{This part of the story is redacted to protect someone I care about - because her supplier is out of prison and walking free today.}

Moving on.

I witnessed a lot of things in my childhood that a child has no business witnessing. I grew up knowing this world has a dark side.

But I grew up just fine.

Why?

The lesson from my meditation on Sunday was the answer. After 20 long years I finally came to the conclusion that:

Children do not need fathers.

Children need role models.


That's what made the difference in my life, which has kept the "bad wiring" I inherited from my father from manifesting itself over time.

When I talk about predatory instincts and man's capacity for violence in this thread, I speak from the heart, because I can feel those instincts and violence inside. It's inside ALL of us. The difference between one man who is peaceful, and another who is violent, is our capacity to channel and control it. All men are capable of unspeakable acts of violence and cruelty; the difference is motivation.

A "good" man needs a damn good reason to inflict his will and do violence on another, and does so as an absolute last resort, feeling remorse over it.

A "bad" man needs very little reason at all and cares nothing at all for the consequences of his actions, and will inflict violence on another and feel good about himself.

I've spent the last 30 years training in martial arts, and the last 17 years learning 'the way of the gun.' I have a pretty good idea of what I'm capable of doing. But the only time I've raised my hand against a fellow man and harmed another has been in self-defense.

Children aren't "made bad", and men aren't "born evil", but the combination of circumstances from one or the other can contribute to how ones life unfolds. What is critical in changing the course of fate is whether a sufficiently powerful role model is introduced to the child's life at the appropriate time and place.
 
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Children do not need fathers.

Children need role models.
Yes, SOME children grow up nicely without fathers, IF they have a substitute.

The problem is, in the overwhelming majority of cases, a child who grows up without a father is more likely to make poor grades in school, drop out of school, do drugs, commit crimes and wind up a drag on society.
 
Trent: Thanks for sharing this (I think). It makes some of the rest of us realize how lucky we are.

I don't mind sharing. It was from the part of my life that I had no control over, so there's no guilt, regrets or other bad feelings left about any of it. I'm not going to be arrogant and say I'm right about any of this, but life has given me some unique insights to abuse and violence.

There is a certain empowerment about violence I've seen in people, like my step father. He was very abusive - he felt powerful because of it.

Later in life I learned how pathetic and weak people like that are. They NEED to abuse people so they don't feel that brittleness and fragility inside.

I've got one more story to share but need a little time to get my thoughts together on it. Involves a man who I was friends with whose life went to hell, and he had a nasty run in with law enforcement after "losing his fear of death."

That story aligns itself more closely towards what leads a person to go up against law enforcement (suicide by cop), or commit a mass shooting.
 
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