Miami airplane shoot/Air marshal shoot (multiple threads merged)

[migoi]

There seems to be...

a whole lot of folks, not here but out in the world, that don't understand or want to understand exactly how high the stakes are in cases like this. I personally don't care if the wife was standing there waving a doctor's certificate that he was harmless... the FAM should be acting on the actions of the person of interest.

Reportedly the person of interest in this case said he had a bomb, refused to comply with orders directed at him (probably by a guy with a gun visibly pointed at him), and then made movements toward where he said he had the bomb. If these bits of information are true...sounds like a legitimate use of a firearm. Considering the possible outcomes if the POI really had a bomb and the FAM had listened to the co-cospirator (the wife) I'm willing to be a bit lenient on the FAM.

Cases like this remind me of a illustrative story. If you take a standard 12 foot long 2X6, lay it flat on the ground (6 inch side facing up), and ask a regular type person to walk it from end to end they will be able to do so with no problem. You take that same 6 inch surface, put it 200 feet in the air and ask people to walk across it and they will refuse, even if given the chance to prove they could when it was on the ground. The reason... the cost of a mistake at 200 feet up is much greater.

This is the same type of thing. The naysayers are seeing the 2X6 lying on the ground. The FAM sees that it is actually 200 feet off the ground and the consequences of his every step could prove to be fatal.

migoi

 

[Manedwolf]

"I have a bomb"

"Stop! Halt! Alto! Get Down! Hands Up!"

*continues running and reaches into carryon bag

wife: "he's my husband. He's just off his meds"

Marshall doesn't fire......BOOM...... terrorist hoax to allow bomber to detonate.

Yeah, I want the Marshalls to take that chance. How bout you?

Yeah, and with the plane AT the gate, too, at somewhat congested MIA. With planes at nearby gates, and others near those, the whole thing could look like the Pearl Harbor airfield today a long time ago in a very short time.

They did what they had to do.

 

[O.F.Fascist]

Meh, crazy people who do stupid stuff around people who are armed get shot. Aint nothing wrong with that.

 

[JMusic]

A few comments here I'd like to make. One is that we do not and will not kn ow all the circumstances here for a while yet. We should not be second guessing anyone that we are paying to protect us. I will say this, I have complied when someone pointed a gun, no questions asked. A man pointing a gun at you delivers a fairly specific message that is quite clear no matter what spoken language is at play. That is to get your hands up and not make any movements that can be construed as threating.
We are living in a very dangerous world today. When I was a LEO you concerned yourself with a deadly threat from another that involved weapons. Today LEO has to consider suicide bombers. Imagine that. When I was active in LE and someone placed their hand in a bag my concern was them pulling out a weapon. Today your concern would be them touching a detonator and destroying everything withing a 50 yard radious. Think about it, because we all may have that to face during the following years to come. Me, even as a civi if threatened I'm pulling a trigger.
Jim

 

[Fat_46]

Air Marshal shoots man claiming to have bomb

http://www.cnn.com/2005/US/12/07/airplane.gunshot/index.html

MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- A 44-year-old U.S. citizen who claimed to have a bomb was shot and killed when air marshals opened fire on a boarding bridge at the Miami airport, several sources told CNN.

American Airlines Flight 924 was in Miami on a stopover during a flight from Medellin, Colombia, to Orlando, Florida, when the man, identified as Rigoberto Alpizar, said there was a bomb in his carry-on backpack, a Department of Homeland Security official said.

Alpizar was confronted by a team of federal air marshals, who followed him down the boarding bridge and ordered him to get on the ground, the official said.
When Alpizar appeared to reach into his backpack, he was shot and wounded, the official said, adding that the marshals' actions were consistent with their training. Officials said later that the man died of his injuries.

Upon investigation, there was no evidence that Alpizar had a bomb, an official said.

Alpizar, of Maitland, Florida, was traveling with a woman and had arrived in Miami on a plane from Quito, Ecuador, federal officials said. He and the woman began arguing before getting off the plane in Miami, two officials said.

A passenger, Mary Gardner, told WTVJ in Miami that the man ran frantically down the aisle from the rear of the plane, arms flailing, and that the woman accompanying him said that Alpizar was bipolar and had not taken his medication, according to The Associated Press.

Officials could not confirm if the man suffered from mental illness.

After he got off the plane in Miami and went through customs, he got on the Orlando-bound plane and said he had a bomb, Air Marshal Service spokesman Dave Adams said.

Air marshals asked him to get off the plane, which he did, but when they asked him to put his bag down, he refused, Adams said. Alpizar then approached the marshals in an aggressive manner, at which point two or three shots were fired, he said.

Karlina Griffith, translating for her grandmother, witness Miriam Delgado, told WFOR television that Delgado heard three gunshots before people started running and "going crazy."

This is the first time an air marshal has fired a weapon on or near an airplane, a federal official said.

Footage from the scene showed armed SWAT team members carrying rifles outside the aircraft, along with more than a dozen police vehicles. Paramedics were standing on the stairway to the aircraft.

Investigators removed the carry-on bag from the airport, and an explosives team detonated several pieces of luggage on the tarmac.

The Boeing 757, which can hold about 180 passengers, was due to take off for Orlando at 2:18 p.m. ET. It had arrived in Miami at 12:16 p.m. ET, according to the airline's Web site. No other flights at Miami International were disrupted Wednesday, an airport official said.

 

[Lennyjoe]

Another thread is going on this same subject. Mods will most likely merge this one as well.

 

[bratch]

They now carry 357 mags according to CNN.

 

[cz75bdneos22]

a simple case of sacrifice one(dead passenger) in order to protect the many(rest of passangers, possibly others nearby) if indeed there would have been an explosive device..all other comments about the nationality or mental status of the deceased are useless...the air marshall did his job,he did what he had to do. i'm sure he considered the situation, his training, commonsense and his professional judgement. unfortunately, it resulted in one death... but it could have been worse...it's easy to quaterback the action when you are not the one on the field... i think.

 

[nyresq]

EDP yells he has a bomb, runs off plane and the FAMs run after him.... EDP reaches into bag while at gunpoint.... EDP gets shot... pretty simple... no more EDP.



and BTW, can you all please stop spelling marshal with two "L"'s... its MARSHAL, NOT MARSHALL

 

[horge]

Air Marshalls shoot passenger in Miami

Relatives say he was bipolar and off his meds.
Interviewed co-passengers say his agitation was due to a
spousal argument on the plane, and the timeline leading up to
the shots seems especially crowded.


----
MIAMI, Florida (CNN) -- A 44-year-old U.S. citizen who claimed to have a bomb was shot and killed when air marshals opened fire on a boarding bridge at the Miami airport, several sources told CNN. No bomb was found.

American Airlines Flight 924 was in Miami on a stopover during a flight from Medellin, Colombia, to Orlando, Florida, when the man, identified as Rigoberto Alpizar, said there was a bomb in his carry-on backpack, a Department of Homeland Security official said.

Alpizar was confronted by a team of federal air marshals, who followed him down the boarding bridge and ordered him to get on the ground, the official said.

When Alpizar appeared to reach into his backpack, he was shot and wounded, the official said, adding that the marshals' actions were consistent with their training. Officials said later that the man died of his injuries.

Upon investigation, there was no evidence that Alpizar had a bomb, an official said.

Alpizar was traveling with a woman and had arrived in Miami on a plane from Quito, Ecuador, federal officials said. He and the woman began arguing before getting off the plane in Miami, two officials said.

A passenger, Mary Gardner, told WTVJ in Miami that the man ran frantically down the aisle from the rear of the plane, arms flailing, and that the woman accompanying him said that her husband was bipolar and had not taken his medication, according to The Associated Press.

After he got off the plane in Miami and went through customs, he got on the Orlando-bound plane and said he had a bomb, Air Marshal Service spokesman Dave Adams said. (Read about air marshals being taught to avoid risk)

Air marshals asked him to get off the plane, which he did, but when they asked him to put his bag down, he refused, Adams said. Alpizar then approached the marshals in an aggressive manner, at which point two or three shots were fired, he said.

Karlina Griffith, translating for her grandmother, witness Miriam Delgado, told WFOR television that Delgado heard three gunshots before people started running and "going crazy." ( Watch a witness account -- :40)

Officials could not confirm if Alpizar suffered from mental illness. His mother-in-law told WKMG television in Orlando that he suffered from bipolar disorder, but his brother-in-law, Steven Buechner, told CNN he was unaware of any mental problems.

Alpizar moved to the United States from Costa Rica in 1986 and worked for Home Depot, Buechner said. He and his wife had been in South America since the day after Thanksgiving to help her uncle, a volunteer dentist, Buechner said.

Alpizar and his wife lived in Maitland, Florida, just a few miles north of Orlando, and they had no children, Buechner said.

The killing marks the first time a federal air marshal has fired a weapon at an individual since the program was bolstered after the September 11, 2001, terrorist attacks.

Footage from the scene showed armed SWAT team members carrying rifles outside the aircraft, along with more than a dozen police vehicles. Paramedics were standing on the stairway to the aircraft.

Investigators took the backpack and two other pieces of Alpizar's luggage onto the tarmac, and an explosives team blew the bag open by firing a bottle full of water at it. The water is used to effectively defuse any explosive device by separating its components.

The Boeing 757, which can hold about 180 passengers, was due to take off for Orlando at 2:18 p.m. ET. It had arrived in Miami at 12:16 p.m. ET, according to the airline's Web site. No other flights at Miami International were disrupted Wednesday, an airport official said.
----

What are the legal (U.S., obviously) requisites for a justified Air Marshall shoot?
What were the threshholds in this deadly turn of events?

Apparently, the supposed verbal claim of having a bomb wasn't enough.
Was it refusing to comply with orders to take off his backpack and set it down?
Was it approaching the agents 'in a threatening manner'?
Was it reaching into the backpack (presumably while still wearing it?)?

 

[cz75bdneos22]

sorry teach......

EDP yells he has a bomb, runs off plane and the FAMs run after him.... EDP reaches into bag while at gunpoint.... EDP gets shot... pretty simple... no more EDP.



and BTW, can you all please stop spelling marshal with two "L"'s... its MARSHAL, NOT MARSHALL

i will not misspell marshal again.
i will not misspell marshal again.
i will not misspell marshal again.

 

[carebear]

Wouldn't be ironic if the Marshal's name was Marshall?

That'd show nyresq.

I'm a bit concerned he was allowed to reboard a flight after:

Alpizar was traveling with a woman and had arrived in Miami on a plane from Quito, Ecuador, federal officials said. He and the woman began arguing before getting off the plane in Miami, two officials said.

A passenger, Mary Gardner, told WTVJ in Miami that the man ran frantically down the aisle from the rear of the plane, arms flailing, and that the woman accompanying him said that her husband was bipolar and had not taken his medication, according to The Associated Press.

I'm not saying arrest the guy for acting weird but maybe have someone in a uniform have a discussion with the couple if indeed it was that obvious.

 

[Henry Bowman]

... an explosives team blew the bag open by firing a bottle full of water at it. The water is used to effectively defuse any explosive device by separating its components.

First I've heard of this technique. Anybody else?

 

[GT]

The wife killed him.

She made him get on the plane without taking his meds. She knew he was nuts and that there is now zero tolerance for a-holic behavior on planes.

Should have rented a car in Miami and driven to Orlando and he could have thrashed around all he wanted.


G

 

[carebear]

First I've heard of this technique. Anybody else?

New to me. Makes sense though. Non-compressible, nonflammable, non-toxic, fairly dense, effectively free.

If you are going to use a kinetic attack against something that might go boom, water's a pretty good choice.

 

[pmcbooks]

There's some early quotes from witnesses about the wife and that the guy was acting "agitated," but have any of the passengers yet reported the bomb claim?

 

[Texfire]

First I've heard of this technique. Anybody else?

Sounds like it's a distortion. There is a technique that bomb squads use where a robot is equiped with a barrel that is capped on one end, filled with water and has a 12 gauge blank round inserted the other end.

When the round is fired the column of water, which is incompressible, is fired through the explosive device. The target is the electronics and the water is used to disrupt it before it can fire. They aren't blowing the device up, they are blowing it apart, but that distinction escapes most.

Tex

 

[wolf_from_wv]

I hope:

that they take it to court...

dig up ALL the evidence...

examine it, cross-examine it, turn it inside out looking for details...

and prove beyond any shadow of doubt in anyone's mind...

That it was justified, and then absolve him of any blame and legal bills.

Question: If they do all that, and people still try to sue, is that defamation of character?

 

[fedlaw]

EXCLUSIVE: Shoe Bomber Alert Preceded Airport Shooting
Egyptian Man Had Been Stopped at New York Airport; Shoes Tested Positive for Explosive
By BRIAN ROSS and CHRIS ISHAM
Dec. 8, 2005 — - FBI officials report that they have located the Egyptian man whose documents showed discrepancies after he was held at JFK airport last week. The man was in Iowa and is not considered a threat.

Federal law enforcement sources told ABC News they had been on the alert for a possible shoe bomber when a federal air marshal opened fire at the Miami International Airport yesterday.

Yesterday, an agitated passenger claiming to have a bomb in his backpack was shot and killed by a federal air marshal, officials said. No bomb was found.

Officials said a 50-year-old Egyptian man was stopped a week ago at New York's John F. Kennedy Airport. Sources said he had a suspicious pair of shoes that tested positive five times for the explosive substance TATP on the interior of his shoes between the heel and sole.

Federal officials said the man's shoes were remarkably similar to those used by shoe bomber Richard Reid, who attempted to blow up an American Airlines jet over the Atlantic four years ago.

The Egyptian man's destination was Des Moines, Iowa, sources said, and he claimed he was a student at Iowa State University in Ames.

After holding him overnight, airport security in New York released him. The FBI was notified after he was released and put out a nationwide alert. FBI officials confirmed that the man's story was true and that he was not a threat.

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