Microsoft anti-gun stance

[oneounceload]

While perusing my email account, I received am email from MS about new terms and agreements being implemented. By reference, these new terms incorporates MS' Code of Conduct. While reading these you come upon the following:

You will not upload, post, transmit, transfer, distribute or facilitate distribution of any content (including text, images, sound, video, data, information or software) or otherwise use the service in a way that:
(the first few are about porn and spam) and then we get to
promotes or otherwise facilitates the purchase and sale of ammunition or firearms.

Termination and Cancellation

Microsoft reserves the right, at its sole discretion, and without any obligation to do so, to review and remove user-created services and content at will and without notice, and delete content and accounts. Microsoft reserves the right, at its sole discretion, to ban participants or terminate access to services.

So, it seems they can cancel your hotmail and other accounts -

This agreement applies to Microsoft Hotmail, Microsoft SkyDrive, Microsoft account, Windows Live Messenger, Microsoft Photo Gallery, Microsoft Movie Maker, Microsoft Mail Desktop, Microsoft Writer (the foregoing are collectively referred to as the "Microsoft branded services"), Bing, MSN, Office.com, and any other software, website, or service that links to this agreement (collectively the "services").

I wonder how long before they start to enforce these regs and shutdown folks

Anyone have any ideas how to fight this?

 

[Midwest]

Wait till the Linux community gets wind of this. Without going too off topic, lets just say that Microsoft is no longer the only game in town....and I'll leave it at that.

 

[ScottieG59]

So, that means ammunition and firearms are okay as a bundle, just not separate?

 

[Jeff H]

Sounds pretty unenforceable to me unless you do something stupid and get your account audited.

promotes or otherwise facilitates the purchase and sale of ammunition or firearms.

I'd be up a creek without a paddle because of all those order confirmations I get via email. LOLOL

 

[oneounceload]

Agree right now it might be awkward to enforce, but thinking past Nov, could an anti Prez ask them to start doing just that? Let's face it, 99.9999999% of the folks just click the "I accept" button without reading the terms for any software program or upgrade. How many of us have set ourselves up and have given away any recourse without even realizing it?

I am sure it wouldn't take them long to put in place filters or other devices that track and report this activity

 

[beatledog7]

We'll just have to start actually getting together to discuss these things, I guess.

 

[MoscowMike]

It seems to be hard to find places to send questions about this topic to Microsoft. I used my Hotmail account Help section to send the following. If anyone has other email addresses which may go more directly to the department dealing with this, please post them.

- Mike

"Looking at the new Microsoft code of conduct, I ran across this prohibition on any activity which "Promotes or otherwise facilitates the purchase and sale of ammunition or firearms."

That's puzzling to me. I am an active target shooter and belong to two gun clubs in the area. People regularly use email to discuss selling or purchasing firearms, group purchases of ammunition or reloading components and many other activities related to the sport.

We just finished the summer Olympics in England, where most nations fielded teams for various shooting sports, including rifle, pistol and shotgun events. Roughly 14 million people in the US go hunting every year, and all of them have some interest in buying or selling ammunition or firearms. Millions more are target shooters.

Are you trying to tell me that Microsoft will close those people's accounts if they discuss buying or selling things they use in common sports?

That seems like a very discriminatory attitude on your part. "

 

[Tcruse]

I suspect that this "CYA" stance is common in such agreements. Yes, you are correct in that most of us just press "I Agree", since we really have no choice except to not use the account and that the worst that can happen is that the account is closed. What it does is protect MS should you buy ammo on line useing your hotmail account and manage to get sued for using that ammo that MS can not be drug into the suit. (Not really sure that these agreements are very inforceable in any event, there are numerous examples of such agreements that have been not considered enforcable by the courts, especially in software license agreements)
As a matter of good practice, consider any email sent outside or your organization (between email servers that you own and can verify that your message does not go over a public internet link) as public and being monitored by everyone. No internet email is secure. If you have an attachement that is secure (encrypted and password/certificate sent over some other secure channel) that is OK, but few home users will go to that extent. Also anything posted to a forum (facebook, twitter etc) are public and should be thought of as such. If you would not want a printed copy of your posting posted at the court house or in front of your house, do not post.
With WPA2 (most secure wifi connetion with shared password) having breaks publicly posted, the wifi networks are not secure either. Use of long and complicated password will help, but with fast computers your wifi traffic can be viewed with less than 24 hours of compute time.

So, be careful what you say and assume that it can be recorded and potentially used against you. For the vast majority of us, it makes no difference since the stuff that we communicate about is not interesting enough.

On these forums I think that using the work "kill" and "stop" as having the same meaning is dangerous.

 

[gc70]

It would be a lot simpler for Microsoft to say "you will not use our services for any illegal purpose." But lawyers seem to dislike generalities, so the agreement has more specificity such as:

depicts nudity of any sort including full or partial human nudity or nudity in non-human forms such as cartoons, fantasy art or manga.

I think I know what Microsoft wanted to convey in that provision, but the actual language probably encompasses half of the baby snapshots ever made. So, watch out grandmothers of the world, Microsoft can cancel your accounts if you share those nudie baby photos!

 

[Prince Yamato]

I think this just means you can't use your @hotmail account to sell guns. A lot of spammers used hotmail to advertise porn and Viagra. As a result almost all hotmail addresses instantly go to a junk mail folder. I think this is in similar vein.

 

[Trent]

The company I built and own is a Microsoft Certified Partner, and even *I* don't know what their intent is with this.

But, we build and sell private clouds - I don't get involved with their "public services" (many of those services actually compete directly against their own partners... such as Office 365, Azure, etc)

So I'm not at all familiar with their SPLA and other public service agreements.

I do have the Microsoft director of ISV relations on my facebook friends list, and numerous people I could call at Microsoft.

If anyone wants to formulate a polite and concise letter, I can forward it on as "a question from one of my clients" and see what I get back.

 

[Quiet]

huh.
Interesting due to the amount of pro-gun employees that work for Microsoft.
A few years back, Microsoft was donating about $100,000 a year to the NRA.

 

[Trent]

An organization that large spends a LOT of money on lawyers every year, both in house and outside, specializing in all sorts of stuff.

I was told the recent changes to the SPLA are MAINLY for protection against class action lawsuit litigation.

Corporate lawyers, by nature, are extremely cautious folks and err on the side of "CYA".

 

[Captains1911]

Does this mean that online firearm and ammo purchases using a hotmail address for purchase confirmations and shipment tracking info would be grounds for account closure? What about emails from members of online gun forums?

 

[ErieLurker]

Even if it is just covering their bets legal-wise, this sort of self-censorship still creates a chilling effect. With Microsoft joining Google (et al.), then additional players will, of course, follow the latters' example.

 

[DNS]

Its another concerted attack by the libs obviously.

I'm sure a lawsuit by the NRA or another gun group is gonna follow eventually. Maybe some NRA memebers here should start complaining with the home office?

 

[horsemen61]

Microsoft

Well this sucks I guess if it does happen I just don't see them being able to enforce it.

 

[Old Fuff]

There is nothing that Microsoft has done that the NRA could sue over. Microsoft is a business, not part of the government. Those that use they're services sign an agreement in exchange for being able to use those services. They can cut off any user that doesn't follow the conditions and requirements in the agreement.

Of course there is no reason anyone has to use their services or software, or patronize they're advertisers.

 

[Trent]

Old Fuff;

Unfortunately, a boycott of Microsoft products and services built using Microsoft products, would kill a lot of pro-gun businesses off. MidwayUSA, for instance, does all of their development on Microsoft platforms.

Hell, my company is a Microsoft partner, and we have company range days!

Developers and engineers who have 20+ years of experience can't just change career paths on a dime.

 

[Old Fuff]

Unfortunately, a boycott of Microsoft products and services built using Microsoft products, would kill a lot of pro-gun businesses off.

I see your point, but I was thinking of our individual members and other followers.

What would happen if they downloaded a copy of Ubuntu Linux and then burned it on to a CD? Incidentally, Ubuntu Linux is free.

Then you can boot to Linux from the CD and not touch whatever version of Windows that's loaded on the hard drive. Remove the disk and reboot and your back to Windows.

Included with the Ubuntu Linux program is a copy of Foxfire, and through it you can open a Thunderbird (or some other) mail service/box.

So at no expense other then what the mailbox might cost you can conduct your over-the-net private individual gun business without violating any agreements you might have with the big guy.

Also of course there is Apple.

www.ubuntu.com

 

[Midwest]

I see your point, but I was thinking of our individual members and other followers.

What would happen if they downloaded a copy of Ubuntu Linux and then burned it on to a CD? Incidentally, Ubuntu Linux is free.

Then you can boot to Linux from the CD and not touch whatever version of Windows that's loaded on the hard drive. Remove the disk and reboot and your back to Windows.

Included with the Ubuntu Linux program is a copy of Foxfire, and through it you can open a Thunderbird (or some other) mail service/box.

So at no expense other then what the mailbox might cost you can conduct your over-the-net private individual gun business without violating any agreements you might have with the big guy.

Also of course there is Apple.

www.ubuntu.com

Yes people do not need Microsoft to access the internet or get email. Apple's Iphone, Ipad, Mac laptops, Android phones, Linux and other variants are taking Microsoft's share bit by bit.

At least Microsoft should come clean on this and just clear the air that they are doing this as a CYA. I would find it difficult to believe that MSFT would just shut off services for people who are engaging in normal legal activity.

 

[Trent]

And Apple is LESS anti-gun than Microsoft? How so?

Microsoft is covering their ass for situations like a 16 year old kid somehow manages to order ammo using their services and later shoots up a school. I seriously doubt they'd give someone the ax over normal commercial activities. "Well, that person was doing that in violation of our terms of service, so we're not liable."

You have to remember, big corporations like Microsoft get sued over piddly, stupid crap every day by people and corporations trying to make a quick buck. People file (and WIN) class action suits over bad solder, bad batteries, and bad software, nearly every day. Sometimes those suits range in to the billions of dollars.

Don't forget Microsoft has public programs that are pro-gun, including endowments to the NRA.

"The Microsoft Gun Club Endowment in 2000 through individual contributions from members of the Microsoft Gun Club. This endowment was established to support training programs for young shooters. Club members' gifts to this endowment are matched dollar for dollar by the Microsoft Corporation."

Meanwhile.. Google, Apple, and so on.. have done exactly what for gun owners?

 

[oneounceload]

Yes, a 16 year old is someone to write these regs for......

Remember, most folks never read these things - so I am sure they feel comfortable burying it in the "fine print", but how many other firms have done so without anyone catching it? Google? Your bank? and on and on......

These companies need to be exposed, called on the carpet somehow and held accountable in the court of public opinion

 

[Trent]

The changes are due to SkyDrive.

A little backgrounder here to understand why the changes are required. Since Skydrive integrates with MS Live (the same platform which drives their e-mail services, etc), those services are also subject to the same acceptable use policy. Since it's a global platform they have to go with the "least common denominator." (The most restrictive laws of anywhere it's available...)

Skydrive is the Microsoft cloud storage platform, where you can store files "in the cloud".

Unfortunately, users who upload certain content can get the HOSTING company in trouble. Big trouble. Up to and including seizure of servers and equipment. (Refer to Megaupload; a site which offered similar services. ALL of their equipment was seized by the FBI, and the company was put out of business, due to USERS uploading copyrighted material. The COMPANY wasn't uploading the material, but people were putting it on their SERVERS. Which means they facilitated it).

Since SkyDrive, Hotmail, so on and so forth are available across the entire globe, they have to comply with hundreds of nations and state's laws regarding data.

In some countries (and probably soon in some jurisdictions in the US), it is flat out illegal to sell or purchase ammunition or firearms online. If their services are used to facilitate such sales, they can (under certain legal systems INCLUDING the United States) be brought under charges for aiding such transactions.

I wouldn't blame the company for this, they have to comply with more laws across the globe than any of us can probably fathom or understand.

You, of course, have the right not to use their services.. but we're probably going to be seeing a LOT more of this in the future. Google, Apple, Microsoft, they're all pretty much in lockstep on acceptable use policies nowadays.

WE have policies similar to this at our company, for our clients. We don't prohibit firearms, because we only deal in the US; but if a customer transmits child porn, copyrighted materials, or other information over our networks, through our servers, or through circuits we provide and maintain, we can terminate the entire company's account immediately. It's in our contracts. ONE person at ONE store can bring that entire COMPANY under litigation if that person uses work networks to transfer certain types of data.

Such is the world we live in.

 

[Trent]

I would expect more companies to clamp down in fear of class action suits, with public mood like this:

http://www.huffingtonpost.com/2012/07/23/james-holmes-weapons-internet_n_1694451.html

(Microsoft's pending September 19th Acceptable Use Policy focus on that - "Finally, we have added a binding arbitration clause and class action waiver that affects how disputes with Microsoft will be resolved in the United States. ")