SmokeySam81
Member
I wanted one most of the time, and had one part of the time. As a backup incase of malfunctions, and as a primary if poking around in houses or tunnels. The rifle however, will always be my weapon of choice beyond ten yards.
Militarily are handguns obsolete?
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JohnBiltz
Member
I know a M9 weighs 33 ounces unloaded, about the same as 100 rounds of 5.56. Given the choice I'd take the 5.56. Here is what the uninitiated doesn't get, the average grunt is carrying way too much stuff. Over 100 pounds with packs. What we carry would have killed a Roman soldier. With out packs just patrolling around the streets of Iraq it was more than a armored knight carried.
Creature
Member
I can tell you from experience in certain middle eastern countries, that among a squad of men with rifles, it the man who is carrying a unholstered pistol that gets the most deference and respect. That counts for something.
walking arsenal
Member
Cane
That's my point exactly. Two is one and one is none. Why not issue a backup?
That's my point exactly. Two is one and one is none. Why not issue a backup?
SharpsDressedMan
member
A pistol that never gets used is unnecessary weight vs. armor that never gets used is unnecessary weight? You MAY survive without either. A prudent man may want to burden themselves with both, or compromise with one or the other, if reducing weight of their kit. Which one you will need first becomes just bad luck.
Cane
That's my point exactly. Two is one and one is none. Why not issue a backup?
OK, lets give everyone an M-9 and 2 extra magazines. That's 45 rounds of ammo (rounded off) That's about 5 M-16 magazines (150 rounds) There are lots of problems with training and NDs. By following your example, why stop with one pistol, why not a BUG in an ankle holster for a few more rounds? The only reason I used my 1911 was because I wasn't issued a long gun. After a while I "acquired" a M-14 and never carried my 1911 again.
That's my point exactly. Two is one and one is none. Why not issue a backup?
OK, lets give everyone an M-9 and 2 extra magazines. That's 45 rounds of ammo (rounded off) That's about 5 M-16 magazines (150 rounds) There are lots of problems with training and NDs. By following your example, why stop with one pistol, why not a BUG in an ankle holster for a few more rounds? The only reason I used my 1911 was because I wasn't issued a long gun. After a while I "acquired" a M-14 and never carried my 1911 again.
Shadow 7D
Member
Notice something
Those who HAVE
explain to those who Have not
WHY it really isn't that important
but how much it weighs IS, you go for a walk
first you need to go to the deep desert @~ 2pm
put on full military issue gear (increases the heat index by 10*)
then go for a light walk, I'll even let you skip by with 2qt, camelback, and 2 canteens
and just a cinderblock (~30lb) in your pack
now you have your weapon with the lickies an chewies ~10lb
and full battle rattle
Now walk, not too fast, but walk, you will be done at 6pm
if you survive,
Now where do you want your pistol
Those who HAVE
explain to those who Have not
WHY it really isn't that important
but how much it weighs IS, you go for a walk
first you need to go to the deep desert @~ 2pm
put on full military issue gear (increases the heat index by 10*)
then go for a light walk, I'll even let you skip by with 2qt, camelback, and 2 canteens
and just a cinderblock (~30lb) in your pack
now you have your weapon with the lickies an chewies ~10lb
and full battle rattle
Now walk, not too fast, but walk, you will be done at 6pm
if you survive,
Now where do you want your pistol
walking arsenal
Member
When the $2.00 extractor on an M-4 takes a crap all that ammo will be real useful to the guy holding the gun.
Man, glad all I have to worry about is taxes and freezing to death.
I'm just thinking the option should be open to the user. Why not? He's the guy taking the lumps after all.
Man, glad all I have to worry about is taxes and freezing to death.
I'm just thinking the option should be open to the user. Why not? He's the guy taking the lumps after all.
leadcounsel
member
Armchair experts tend to want more ammo for a primary weapon.
I've been in Iraq in every year for the last 4 years. I've "been there" and I'm just an Army JAG. I've spent a lot of time outside the wire in all sorts of vehicles (air and ground) (and a fair bit on foot).
Modern combat veterans generally prefer both a primary and a sidearm. Modern "combat" frequently involves VERY confined quarters of riding in HMMWVs, MRAPs, RG33s, Blackhawks, etc... where wielding and firing an M4 would be impractical or flat out impossible. Or even in meetings with locals where you may set your M4 down but you want to keep your M9 on your person.
Also, Soldiers should learn weapon transition drills, it's faster to have your M4 slung and let go and draw your sidearm than it is to reload under some QCB situations. That's obviously situation dependent, but it's a technique. The extra 3 pounds of M9 and ammo is a valuable 3 lbs. You can cut 3 lbs of weight elsewhere if need be.
And finally, those of us that have "been there" know that it's much more convenient to carry your M9 in the majority of the time when you're headed to the Dining Facilty, gym, or just tooling around base. Much easier to take the M9.
There really doesn't seem to be much relationship regaring rank vs. M4 and M9 or both. It seems to more depend upon duties and frankly what's in the unit's arms room. I can say that I've seen tens of thousands of Soldiers in Iraq and have been puzzled why certain ones have certain weapons...
We can debate the merits of the platform another time. I generally prefer the 1911 over the M9, but that's not an option for me (it is for some Special Ops guys). Still, I'd take the M9 and an M4 vs. an M4 with extra mags.
I've been in Iraq in every year for the last 4 years. I've "been there" and I'm just an Army JAG. I've spent a lot of time outside the wire in all sorts of vehicles (air and ground) (and a fair bit on foot).
Modern combat veterans generally prefer both a primary and a sidearm. Modern "combat" frequently involves VERY confined quarters of riding in HMMWVs, MRAPs, RG33s, Blackhawks, etc... where wielding and firing an M4 would be impractical or flat out impossible. Or even in meetings with locals where you may set your M4 down but you want to keep your M9 on your person.
Also, Soldiers should learn weapon transition drills, it's faster to have your M4 slung and let go and draw your sidearm than it is to reload under some QCB situations. That's obviously situation dependent, but it's a technique. The extra 3 pounds of M9 and ammo is a valuable 3 lbs. You can cut 3 lbs of weight elsewhere if need be.
And finally, those of us that have "been there" know that it's much more convenient to carry your M9 in the majority of the time when you're headed to the Dining Facilty, gym, or just tooling around base. Much easier to take the M9.
There really doesn't seem to be much relationship regaring rank vs. M4 and M9 or both. It seems to more depend upon duties and frankly what's in the unit's arms room. I can say that I've seen tens of thousands of Soldiers in Iraq and have been puzzled why certain ones have certain weapons...
We can debate the merits of the platform another time. I generally prefer the 1911 over the M9, but that's not an option for me (it is for some Special Ops guys). Still, I'd take the M9 and an M4 vs. an M4 with extra mags.
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SharpsDressedMan
member
I've noticed that us armchair guys often disagree on this issue, but then again, so have the people that have been to Iraq & Afghanistan and done it daily. Maybe it should be mostly a matter of choice (when the soldier has a choice), and no one answer fits all.
leadcounsel
member
Sarcasm on
@Sharpdressedman-
You Sir, have clearly never been in the military... personal choice??? What's that?
@Sharpdressedman-
You Sir, have clearly never been in the military... personal choice??? What's that?
Shadow 7D
Member
Like you point out, it depends on what you are doing,
I did two tours, mainly convoy and combat escort, we tried to avoid the cities as that was safer for our trucks, esp. when you are escorting fuel tankers. Most of the places we were on foot had pretty good LOS and room, And as one of the guys put it, if we had to, and it was worth clearing, it was worth putting a TOW into. Our maxim was never stop, never dismount. Esp. in the cities. It got 115 guys home in one piece.
The tactics focused on defending the crew served and the truck.
That said, for the liaison teams, I could and did see many of them armed with pistols, I saw them because they had two platoons of us (cav) making our 'presence' known and forming a perimeter when they went into some rather bad areas.
I did two tours, mainly convoy and combat escort, we tried to avoid the cities as that was safer for our trucks, esp. when you are escorting fuel tankers. Most of the places we were on foot had pretty good LOS and room, And as one of the guys put it, if we had to, and it was worth clearing, it was worth putting a TOW into. Our maxim was never stop, never dismount. Esp. in the cities. It got 115 guys home in one piece.
The tactics focused on defending the crew served and the truck.
That said, for the liaison teams, I could and did see many of them armed with pistols, I saw them because they had two platoons of us (cav) making our 'presence' known and forming a perimeter when they went into some rather bad areas.
DC3-CVN-72
Member
I would like to coment on the M.P. role in a combat zone. I'm a member of V.F.W. post #177. 3 of my fellow post members are M.P's with the Illinois ARMY N.G. They all have M-9's & M-4's. They "ROLL VERRY HEVY" in a combat zone. They tell me because of their A.P.C's & UP ARMORED HUM-VEES, they are used as a rapid reaction force. Not one of them has directed traffic or guarded a prisiner. 
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UKarmourer
Member
Well as a brit, we hardly ever used to issue pistols, except while in plainclothes in NI, then along came Iraq, more came out of the arms stores, I used To carry one as a armd veh commander, easier to get to than my rifle, less hassle than using the chain gun!
Now in afghan the rule is, if outside the wire you get a pistol, its way quicker than reloading in a compound, quicker than clearing a stoppage, and is just handy to have.
i would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
And reference using them in base locations, in 2008 just before I redeployed we were briefed on safety inside camp. A danish officer had gone for a shower and while he was shaving two Iraqi civilians (local employees) came out of the cubicles and attempted to subdue him, Mr 9mm made his prescence felt and what could have ended badly just ended. (also heard about soem female US soldiers being raped, which seems pretty unlkely, but still nasty to think about) so I really agree with carrying inside the wire!
Now in afghan the rule is, if outside the wire you get a pistol, its way quicker than reloading in a compound, quicker than clearing a stoppage, and is just handy to have.
i would rather have it and not need it than need it and not have it.
And reference using them in base locations, in 2008 just before I redeployed we were briefed on safety inside camp. A danish officer had gone for a shower and while he was shaving two Iraqi civilians (local employees) came out of the cubicles and attempted to subdue him, Mr 9mm made his prescence felt and what could have ended badly just ended. (also heard about soem female US soldiers being raped, which seems pretty unlkely, but still nasty to think about) so I really agree with carrying inside the wire!
aryfrosty
Member
HAndguns
They are well used, especially if your MOS puts you in a position to carry what you like and you can go for a 1911 or Sig.
I heard something mentioned similar to what you said about using one to get to a rifle...
"If I have need I will use a stick until I find a good rock. Then I'll use the rock to fight my way to a decent knife. Then I'll take the knife and go harvest myself a nice handgun. Once I have that I'll use it to get a shotgun. I'll use a shotgun to procure a rifle. Once I have my nice, new rifle the monsters and orcs better grab their butts because I now own the battlefield." So long as you are alive and thinking and moving around use what you have to stay that way.
Hey, UK Armorer... Glad you're home and Thank you for serving.
They are well used, especially if your MOS puts you in a position to carry what you like and you can go for a 1911 or Sig.
I heard something mentioned similar to what you said about using one to get to a rifle...
"If I have need I will use a stick until I find a good rock. Then I'll use the rock to fight my way to a decent knife. Then I'll take the knife and go harvest myself a nice handgun. Once I have that I'll use it to get a shotgun. I'll use a shotgun to procure a rifle. Once I have my nice, new rifle the monsters and orcs better grab their butts because I now own the battlefield." So long as you are alive and thinking and moving around use what you have to stay that way.
Hey, UK Armorer... Glad you're home and Thank you for serving.
Obviously I fought a different war, there wasn't any tooling around in vehicles, going to the gym, or the compound Micky Ds. Maybe I missed it, but of all the answers concerning both a rifle and pistol, none of the posters had ever actually had to use their pistol in combat. For all those currently serving, thank you for your service.
JohnBiltz
Member
Big difference between riding and walking. If you are riding there is no problem with having a spare rifle or all the ammo you want for that matter. There is a reason the Infantry has the saying "a bad ride is better than a good walk". I've had to tell soldiers to dump ammo because they are carrying too much weight. I've also carried 25 pounds of ammo for crew served weapons.
Sapper771
Member
I do not think that pistols are obsolete in military roles. I beleive that pistols should be issued to all combat MOS troops, regardless of rank.
While I was deployed to Iraq, I used a pistol fequently.
While I was deployed to Iraq, I used a pistol fequently.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Handguns were never a primary weapon, except maybe for cavalry. (I read that cavalryman Winston Churchill carried and used a Mauser C96 because an injury prevented him from using a saber.)
Handguns have been a niche weapon and always will be with us. There are just some situations where rifles, shotguns, submachine guns and PDW (Personal Defense Weapons) are just not as convenient as a good sidearm.
The M1 Carbine was designed as an alternative weapon for crews and support personnel who would otherwise be carrying a .45 1911. (Watch some documentary footage and see how often you spot a soldier or marine with an M1 carbine and a pistol belt.)
Handguns have been a niche weapon and always will be with us. There are just some situations where rifles, shotguns, submachine guns and PDW (Personal Defense Weapons) are just not as convenient as a good sidearm.
The M1 Carbine was designed as an alternative weapon for crews and support personnel who would otherwise be carrying a .45 1911. (Watch some documentary footage and see how often you spot a soldier or marine with an M1 carbine and a pistol belt.)
Don357
Member
Not that I'm an advocate for it, but, when your "rifle" (poodle shooter) isn't much longer than a pistol, and with the design of "tactical" slings, and considering that the effectivness of the standard military round, (5.56x45 vs 9mm) being about the same, why be redundant? Oh! That's the US Govt. for you. Useless redundancy!
SAVE ME SOME MONEY!!!! Issue our military weapons that are actually effective.
SAVE ME SOME MONEY!!!! Issue our military weapons that are actually effective.
RockyMtnTactical
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Handguns will never be obsolete but in military terms they will always be a secondary weapon for obvious reasons.
jonmerritt
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I had a sidearm, a shotgun, and an m16. m16a2 it was I think. Then was moded to the adjustable butt stock. But was still the m16a2. PLayed in the sandbox's. ANd was considered combat heavy. And was dam glad I had the weapons I had. I started out with the 1911. Ended up with the m9 in combat, Had a Mossberg for the shotty. Hated the burst mode on the m16 Think t was called the m4 after the mods.
HAd to use a few other weapons, but that's another story. I was dam glad I had tha sidearm, I wouldn't be here if I didn't. Which is best? A 2x4 if needed at the time. There is no best, it all depends on the person holding it. That's why ours do so well, they the people on the ground, they are the best.
HAd to use a few other weapons, but that's another story. I was dam glad I had tha sidearm, I wouldn't be here if I didn't. Which is best? A 2x4 if needed at the time. There is no best, it all depends on the person holding it. That's why ours do so well, they the people on the ground, they are the best.
Different experience
SHADOW,
I frequently have to go onto a military base for my work. The base security guys are issued M9 BERETTA pistols, but frequently do not carry them when working base security if they are carrying something heavier. It is their choice from what they tell me. Oddly enough, they still are wearing holsters for the pistol, just not wearing the pistol.
That does not change what Military Police have to do when carrying out their law enforcement role. Handguns are used just like civilian police use them, as defensive weapons.
Also, the fear of rape among female soldiers in the U.S. military is one of main reasons cited as a cause of fear with U.S. troops.
Jim
SHADOW,
I frequently have to go onto a military base for my work. The base security guys are issued M9 BERETTA pistols, but frequently do not carry them when working base security if they are carrying something heavier. It is their choice from what they tell me. Oddly enough, they still are wearing holsters for the pistol, just not wearing the pistol.
That does not change what Military Police have to do when carrying out their law enforcement role. Handguns are used just like civilian police use them, as defensive weapons.
Also, the fear of rape among female soldiers in the U.S. military is one of main reasons cited as a cause of fear with U.S. troops.
Jim
Phantom Warrior
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This is incorrect. MPs get the CAB.
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