Military .38 Special Better than 9mm in the Battlefield?

[moxie]

To my knowledge we never issued tracer for aircrews. Might have happened. Better was the pen launcher for small flares. They were issued.

Yes, HP is issued to outfits like the AFOSI.

Regular Security Police use NATO 9mm FMJ.

 

[Dave T]

Some of the claims for Military 38 Special rounds sound like they come from Hollywood rather than the real world. Every Air Force guy I know from the Vietnam era and later hated the wimpy 130g government loading. I have had an opportunity to fire some surplus samples (and some that was obtained by Federal LEOs for practice) and it was all less powerful than the then (1970s) service loading of a 158g RNL at ~800 fps from a 4" barrel. In firing it felt more like 148g wad-cutters.

Dave

 

[easyg]

I dunno. A 9mm hole is a 9mm hole, whether it's slightly supersonic or just puttering along at 750 fps.

So a .380 is the same as a .357 magnum?!?!?

 

[Arp32]

JHP is frowned upon for use outside the continental US in combat zones.

rc

RC is right, as usual. I believe hollow points in a theater of war are a violation of the Geneva Conventions.

 

[mljdeckard]

The Hague Accords.

 

[willypete]

So a .380 is the same as a .357 magnum?!?!?

Next time you quote me, feel free to include the rest of the statement so that you don't do so out of context.



Then again, if you don't understand the difference between FMJ and HP ammo, or 9x19/.38 vs. 9x17/.357...

 

[Onmilo]

There was a high velocity M41 load. It was NEVER issued in any quantities and it came along at the end of the Viet Nam war.
I have a box of the stuff around here somewhere along with a box of standard .38 Ball but can't find them right off the bat.

Standard .38 BALL ammo was the issue load, a 130 grain FMJ travelling at 700 fps or so, it was basically a full metal jacket duplicate of the earlier pathetic .38 Long Colt load so universally despised in the Philippines.

I have had Air Cavalry vets tell me the pilots would get Remington .38 Special Metal Piercing rounds sent from home.
These were 158 grain fmj loads that moved out at about 900 fps, nobody complained because they were metal jacketed and met the Hague requirements for combat ammunition and they were quite a step up from the issue ammunition.

My box of .38 BALL came from Military Police Armorer. It was still the issue ammunition for .38 revolvers in 1984. I got my box of M41 Ball from an S.F. Guy and who knows what they used the stuff for.

The ONLY personnel authorized to carry .38 hollowpoint were the CID guys and they also packed Colt Detective Specials, the only people I ever saw issued that particular weapon.

Standard military .38 BALL is no where near as effective as the current 9mm NATO load.
Anybody tells you it is is fooling themselves and misleading you.HTH

 

[AirForceShooter]

They were just soooo pretty

AFS

 

[Carl N. Brown]

I bought some 130gr FMJ factory loads cheap for practice. They are pretty. I also was given a couple of boxes of 158g lead round nose police reloads (Star Reloading Co.) that were in the personal effects of a deceased relative retired from law enforcement. They were ugly by comparison, recoil was stiffer and cleanup was dirtier.

To my knowledge we never issued tracer for aircrews. Might have happened. Better was the pen launcher for small flares. They were issued.

As a kid I raised a question about a injured airman firing his revolver in the air in a 1953 movie on the late show (wondering what good that would do in a high wind) and got an answer that during World War II .38 Spl tracers were issued as signalling devices. Later found a source: Edwards Brown Jr., "DCM Shopper's Guide", The American Rifleman, Apr 1946, p. 18.

Then other sources claimed .38 tracer rounds were included in aircrew survival vest kits about 1960, 1961, described as re-issue, so by 1961 not standard issue, limited times, limited theaters of operation is my guess.

I have no doubt that standard issue of proper pen gun flare launchers made the use of .38 tracers, well, useless in comparison and made the .38 tracer obsolete for signalling purposes.

They are described as a collectible item with painted tips indicating color.

 

[Jim Watson]

The souped up military .38 was the PGU12B with a heavier load and a deep seated, hard crimped bullet. It got about as much as possible out of a .38 revolver with FMJ but was hard on the guns. Even with the light military load and commercial ammo for stateside, the guns were wearing out in the 1970s. One article I read said that 40% of the guns sent in for depot level maintenance were rejected as irreparable. So the Airforce got us the Beretta and the rest is history.

 

[AirForceShooter]

In 1966-67 FAC pilots were issued tracer rounds.
Most never loaded them but they did carry a few along

AFS