Military and police shotguns
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entropy
Member
In rough chronological order: Remington Mod. 1900, Win. Model 1897, Remington Model 10, Browning A-5, Win. Mod.12, Remington Mod. 31, Stevens 520/620, Ithaca Mod. 37, Remington 870, Savage/Stevens 67 series 12 ga. pumps, Remington 1100/ 11-87, High Standard Mod. 10, Win. 1200/1300, S&W 1000, S&W 916, Remington 7188, SPAS, Ithaca/Remington, SP-10, AA12, Pancor Jackhammer, Beretta 1301, HK/Benelli M1 and successors (M2, M4, M1014) Mossberg 500/590, Kel-Tec KSG. This list is not all-inclusive, it's just what I could come up with off the top of my head.
Yeah. That's why I said large ones. I live in a small town and know of some pretty odd shotgun choices even today among my LE buddies.
I recently picked up a Smith 916 as part of a package deal that I've read was a (bad) issued shotgun.
entropy
Member
Who issued the KSG. I recently worked on one for a guy. I wasn't impressed with it myself.
Also what was the difference in the 67 and 77 stevens. Ive seen 77 that were supposed to be military.
I shot the one I got. Worked as it should
. I read that some didn't like that it had only one action bar. I grew up carrying dads Flite king. I fired thousands of shells and the single action bar had no issue. This one is a Smith 916A
entropy
Member
The KSG might not be a good one for the list, I do know one county around here uses it for their CIRT team. Mea Culpa on the Stevens 77, yes, they were also issued.
lemaymiami
Member
Our issue shotguns (you had to sign out your choice from the rack each shift...) were a mix of Mossberg 500’s and Remington Wingmaster model 870’s in the spring of 1974 when I first hit the street, working for a 100 man agency in Dade county (the Miami area).
All of them were much abused basic riot guns, four round tube, 18” barrel, simple bead sight. This was long before “police” designated shotguns came to the market. They were simple, deadly,close quarters fight enders using 2 3/4” 00 buck rounds.
Whenever I had a choice I always preferred the 870’s since I distrusted the safeties on the Mossbergs... Nothing wrong with their safeties... I distrusted my handling of them in that one awful moment when it’s all on the line.
When I retired out in 1995 all of them were still in use but the writing was on the wall and like many police departments we were on our way to carbines instead.
Me, I preferred the shotgun and it was always in my hands on any hot call, period. Like I said, at close quarters (15 yards or less) it dominates any confrontation.
All of them were much abused basic riot guns, four round tube, 18” barrel, simple bead sight. This was long before “police” designated shotguns came to the market. They were simple, deadly,close quarters fight enders using 2 3/4” 00 buck rounds.
Whenever I had a choice I always preferred the 870’s since I distrusted the safeties on the Mossbergs... Nothing wrong with their safeties... I distrusted my handling of them in that one awful moment when it’s all on the line.
When I retired out in 1995 all of them were still in use but the writing was on the wall and like many police departments we were on our way to carbines instead.
Me, I preferred the shotgun and it was always in my hands on any hot call, period. Like I said, at close quarters (15 yards or less) it dominates any confrontation.
BigBlue 94
Member
Kansas Highway Patrol Troop B were issued Rem 870s in the late 90s. It sat upright, between the front seats of a crown vic. My buddy's dad was a trooper, on the swat team, and a K-9 handler. Also issued a select fire M4.
FL-NC
Member
When I first came into the army in 1987, the old Winchester 1200 is what I saw the most of for regular "big army" issue. We had 870's. Later at some point the Mossberg 590 became the "big army" standard. Benelli autos were also in limited use for anti-personnel, with the shorty 870's used as breachers.
Carl N. Brown
Member
Smith & Wesson 916 was S&W's way of getting in the shotgun market cheap. They bought the design and parts inventory of the Model 66 from Noble (a defunct company known for (ahem) inexpensive guns of low esteem). S&W engineers corrected what they considered design faults and viola, S&W had an inexpensive entry gun in both the civilian and LE shotgun market. I bought one in the 1970s, never managed to break it despite me not babying the thing. My son has it now, kept as the first shotgun he ever shot. No, it is not a Remington 870 or Mossberg 500 but for 4 decades or so it did what I needed done with a shotgun. I would rather have my S&W 916 back than accept a used Rem 870 or Mossy 500 with no opportunity to check them out.
lemaymiami
Member
Forgot to mention... that sticky near the top of this board "fighting shotguns" is well worth a read - particularly anything written by Dave McCracken.... You might want to crack a cold one first since it's many pages long - but very much worth reading - every bit of it (even the ridiculous parts..).
I never met Dave and wish I'd been lucky enough to learn from him. Most of my education about shotguns for the street came the hard way.
I never met Dave and wish I'd been lucky enough to learn from him. Most of my education about shotguns for the street came the hard way.
Win 97s, 12s, then Ithaca 37s, the. 870s and 500s which is were we’re at today.
Those are some of the bigger players but tons of other smaller ones used.
Those are some of the bigger players but tons of other smaller ones used.
Rubone
Member
More recent Army vet. Only shotguns I saw or used were the Mossberg 5 series. Not sure if they were 500 or 590/A1 types. We had a handful of Mossbergs overseas that were given to contractors or interpreters that came along with us on patrol and were trusted to be armed. Short barrel, about 14 inches I would guess, pistol grip only. No top rail for optics or good irons, just a front brass bead for aiming. They didn't get much use as a breaching tool, there weren't many doors that needed to be shot open.
Post Army I did a brief stint working in LE. No patrol officers I know of had a shotgun in the vehicle. A few officers had AR15s if they passed their department safety and range courses. And paid for them out of pocket. The shift supervisor officer sometimes had a less lethal modified 870 in their vehicle. Easy to see with the bright orange furniture. Officers that patrolled more rural areas carried a Taurus Judge or SW Governor. 45LC or 410 shells work on critters like rabid dogs and such.
Post Army I did a brief stint working in LE. No patrol officers I know of had a shotgun in the vehicle. A few officers had AR15s if they passed their department safety and range courses. And paid for them out of pocket. The shift supervisor officer sometimes had a less lethal modified 870 in their vehicle. Easy to see with the bright orange furniture. Officers that patrolled more rural areas carried a Taurus Judge or SW Governor. 45LC or 410 shells work on critters like rabid dogs and such.
Riomouse911
Member
At all three of the different agencies I’ve worked for over the past 30 years the 870 was used at them all.
At my second stop (1994-2007) patrol units were issued Benelli M1’s and the K9s, SWAT and Detective units had 870’s. Patrol Sergeants and Corporals also had “bean bag” 870’s for less lethal.
The Benelli is a great shotgun, but sometimes with “low recoil” or “tactical” buck or slug loads it can be unreliable.
Stay safe.
At my second stop (1994-2007) patrol units were issued Benelli M1’s and the K9s, SWAT and Detective units had 870’s. Patrol Sergeants and Corporals also had “bean bag” 870’s for less lethal.
The Benelli is a great shotgun, but sometimes with “low recoil” or “tactical” buck or slug loads it can be unreliable.
Stay safe.
870 police magnums issued at the S.O. i worked at.....period.
The pd had 870 wingmaster cut-downs. Beat to crap and poorly maintained. These were "check-out/check-in" shift guns. You could elect to carry your personal gun. Mine was an old Ithaca 37. Most other officers bought winchester defenders... Capacity and price along with the novelty of that rotary bolt. officers seemed to love them. Considering those pd wingmasters, i can understand why. That was older times.
nowadays, the pd officers are buying 590's.
The pd had 870 wingmaster cut-downs. Beat to crap and poorly maintained. These were "check-out/check-in" shift guns. You could elect to carry your personal gun. Mine was an old Ithaca 37. Most other officers bought winchester defenders... Capacity and price along with the novelty of that rotary bolt. officers seemed to love them. Considering those pd wingmasters, i can understand why. That was older times.
nowadays, the pd officers are buying 590's.
Absolutely. Ive been over at that thread many times over the years.
And I appreciate the responses. I've been a hunter/ clay shooter all my adult life. I have LE buddies and military friends too. I have more than enough shotguns (from 1898 up to one of last year's model) but occasionally I read about or see one (like the 520/620 or the 916A or the stevens 77 a few years back) and I think that must be a limited obscure piece. Then I research them and see that they were issued in decent numbers but somehow I never saw or heard of one. Got me interested in what else was issued or carried. Not to one guys uncles buddy who carried his grandpas Flite king... but in decent numbers, certainly doesn't have to be tens of thousands or millions like the Mossberg or 870. Especially pump guns from ww1 through around the 80s.
Also ive seen the debate for years and years but what ammo was used? Usually the fight starts between buckshot and slugs. Ive used both and know the difference in what they are made for/ best for. But for LE or military (especially LE) you don't really know what your going to be loading up for. Then some folks swear by staggering the two. Not looking for a right or wrong here either, I don't think there is a clear answer. But what was issued.
Our county guys carry what they want in 12 guage. We have a prison an hour and a half away that stocks Benelli Nova/870/ and Mossbergs.
lemaymiami
Member
All of my issued ammo, all those years ago was basic 2 3/4 00 buck, in whatever American brand my outfit bought off of the state's supply list in bulk.. In my later years, after I went to the trouble of actually learning as much about the shotgun for police work as I could... This is the setup I came up with in an era when it was really possible for one of my young officers to walk into automatic weapons fire from more than one opponent...
Not my original bandoleer - this was a copy I picked up years later... an M-16 magazine bandoleer filled with five shot boxes of various different loads for my shotgun...
Each box has the bottom cut out so all you do is pull the box away and you have five rounds of your choice - with the labels on the boxes up so you could see if it's buck or slug ---- or Flite Control, or standard...
Doubt it will ever see the light of day again (hopefully). On the street my original bandoleer resided in the trunk of whatever vehicle I was using - along with my shotgun. On any hot call, the bandoleer went over my shoulder as I picked up the shotgun... In that era we didn't have Flite Control rounds so the bandoleer only held five boxes - three of buck, two of slug....
The biggest problem for a daily shotgun user with extra rounds is keeping those extra rounds clean, dry, and ready for use - even if it might be months between each actual need. This was my solution - and not authorized at all... Glad to report that it was never actually needed. In my 22 years of service I only fired a single shot - and that was long before I ever really learned how to do what was needed with a shotgun...
Not my original bandoleer - this was a copy I picked up years later... an M-16 magazine bandoleer filled with five shot boxes of various different loads for my shotgun...
Each box has the bottom cut out so all you do is pull the box away and you have five rounds of your choice - with the labels on the boxes up so you could see if it's buck or slug ---- or Flite Control, or standard...
Doubt it will ever see the light of day again (hopefully). On the street my original bandoleer resided in the trunk of whatever vehicle I was using - along with my shotgun. On any hot call, the bandoleer went over my shoulder as I picked up the shotgun... In that era we didn't have Flite Control rounds so the bandoleer only held five boxes - three of buck, two of slug....
The biggest problem for a daily shotgun user with extra rounds is keeping those extra rounds clean, dry, and ready for use - even if it might be months between each actual need. This was my solution - and not authorized at all... Glad to report that it was never actually needed. In my 22 years of service I only fired a single shot - and that was long before I ever really learned how to do what was needed with a shotgun...
Speedo66
Member
As above, virtually ANY American pump or auto shotgun has been used by the military and police.
The military usually just issued as-needed contracts for shotguns and didn't "officially" adopt them.
From 1897 to the 1950's the Big Three were the Winchester 1897, Model 12, and the Ithaca Model 37.
Interestingly, all three were John Browning designs. The Model 37 was first made by Remington, then Ithaca got it.
Things changed in the 1960's in two regards.....
First, most makers could no longer afford to produce the old forged and milled steel "Tank" shotguns, so they began producing guns made of "Space Age" materials, i.e. aluminum, plastic, and stamped parts.
Winchester killed themselves in 1964 when they canceled their older guns and introduced the Model 1200.
Other makers introduced their own aluminum and stamped models.
Only Remington got it right with their Model 870, made from a forged steel receiver and with heavy duty fabricated internals.
The second big change came with the increased crime rate of the 60's and 70's.
Prior to this police shotguns were "riot" guns....... They sat in police racks until there was a riot, man hunt, or barricaded suspect.
Then the guns were issued and after the emergency were returned to the racks until the next time.
Under those conditions the old "tank" forged steel guns would last almost forever.
With the increase of violent crime and police shootings, departments began putting shotguns in every patrol car and the cops were encouraged to use them instead of the pistol.
The old steel guns eventually wore out and had to be replaced.
Under these conditions of shotguns used by everyone, but "owned" by no one, the guns got abusive treatment such as the night watch version of "Hold my beer and watch this".
The result was that the "Space Age" guns simply failed to stand up.
Winchester told police buyers that the Model 1200 was a great gun, better then the old Model 97 and 12, but the actual results were the guns just failed.
So, Winchester did a fast redesign and brought it out as the Model 1300.
It failed too, and after that virtually no large police agency ever bought a Winchester shotgun again.
S&W attempted to make a move on Remington with the Model 916.
It was such a disaster in both the police and commercial market that at one point S&W actually had internal discussions about recalling them all to protect the S&W name.
They made a second attempt with the Japanese Howa Model 3000, which was a Remington 870 clone.
For a short time it had a cult following among individual police officers, but the gun had nothing to recommend it over the Remington 870, so due to lack of sales S&W dropped it.
Mossberg picked it up as the Model 3000 for a few years, then also dropped it.
Mossberg made their try with the Model 500.
Only a large Tennessee agency bought it and soon dropped it after it too failed to stand up.
By this time US law enforcement had settled on the Remington 870 because of it's proven ability to stand up to police use.
Virtually every law enforcement agency; local police, sheriff, State police, and Federal used and mostly still use the 870. Until the last 10 years or so, Remington held 95% plus of the LE market.
Currently other makers are starting to break in to the military and police market with new designs.
Mossberg having failed with the 500 introduced a much beefed up 500 gun as the Model 590 and 590-A1.
They won a contract to supply 590-A1 shotguns to the US Government.
Their advertising bragged that "Only the Mossberg was able to pass the grueling government firing test and win the contract".
The truth is ONLY Mossberg entered a shotgun in what was actually a pass-fail test.
The test was not a "What gun's the best" it was only to pass the fairly easy to pass firing test.
If a gun could pass the fairly easy test, the lowest bidder would get the contract.
Since companies like Remington could not possibly make a forged steel receiver gun as cheaply as Mossberg's extruded aluminum gun, no other maker bothered to enter a gun for the test.
In recent years a number of newer guns using modern manufacturing methods have begun to be able to stand up to military and police use so they are starting to make inroads in the market.
Through out the history of the 20th Century, whenever the military or law enforcement needed shotguns, most any available gun would do so virtually all of them have seen service at one time or another.
The military usually just issued as-needed contracts for shotguns and didn't "officially" adopt them.
From 1897 to the 1950's the Big Three were the Winchester 1897, Model 12, and the Ithaca Model 37.
Interestingly, all three were John Browning designs. The Model 37 was first made by Remington, then Ithaca got it.
Things changed in the 1960's in two regards.....
First, most makers could no longer afford to produce the old forged and milled steel "Tank" shotguns, so they began producing guns made of "Space Age" materials, i.e. aluminum, plastic, and stamped parts.
Winchester killed themselves in 1964 when they canceled their older guns and introduced the Model 1200.
Other makers introduced their own aluminum and stamped models.
Only Remington got it right with their Model 870, made from a forged steel receiver and with heavy duty fabricated internals.
The second big change came with the increased crime rate of the 60's and 70's.
Prior to this police shotguns were "riot" guns....... They sat in police racks until there was a riot, man hunt, or barricaded suspect.
Then the guns were issued and after the emergency were returned to the racks until the next time.
Under those conditions the old "tank" forged steel guns would last almost forever.
With the increase of violent crime and police shootings, departments began putting shotguns in every patrol car and the cops were encouraged to use them instead of the pistol.
The old steel guns eventually wore out and had to be replaced.
Under these conditions of shotguns used by everyone, but "owned" by no one, the guns got abusive treatment such as the night watch version of "Hold my beer and watch this".
The result was that the "Space Age" guns simply failed to stand up.
Winchester told police buyers that the Model 1200 was a great gun, better then the old Model 97 and 12, but the actual results were the guns just failed.
So, Winchester did a fast redesign and brought it out as the Model 1300.
It failed too, and after that virtually no large police agency ever bought a Winchester shotgun again.
S&W attempted to make a move on Remington with the Model 916.
It was such a disaster in both the police and commercial market that at one point S&W actually had internal discussions about recalling them all to protect the S&W name.
They made a second attempt with the Japanese Howa Model 3000, which was a Remington 870 clone.
For a short time it had a cult following among individual police officers, but the gun had nothing to recommend it over the Remington 870, so due to lack of sales S&W dropped it.
Mossberg picked it up as the Model 3000 for a few years, then also dropped it.
Mossberg made their try with the Model 500.
Only a large Tennessee agency bought it and soon dropped it after it too failed to stand up.
By this time US law enforcement had settled on the Remington 870 because of it's proven ability to stand up to police use.
Virtually every law enforcement agency; local police, sheriff, State police, and Federal used and mostly still use the 870. Until the last 10 years or so, Remington held 95% plus of the LE market.
Currently other makers are starting to break in to the military and police market with new designs.
Mossberg having failed with the 500 introduced a much beefed up 500 gun as the Model 590 and 590-A1.
They won a contract to supply 590-A1 shotguns to the US Government.
Their advertising bragged that "Only the Mossberg was able to pass the grueling government firing test and win the contract".
The truth is ONLY Mossberg entered a shotgun in what was actually a pass-fail test.
The test was not a "What gun's the best" it was only to pass the fairly easy to pass firing test.
If a gun could pass the fairly easy test, the lowest bidder would get the contract.
Since companies like Remington could not possibly make a forged steel receiver gun as cheaply as Mossberg's extruded aluminum gun, no other maker bothered to enter a gun for the test.
In recent years a number of newer guns using modern manufacturing methods have begun to be able to stand up to military and police use so they are starting to make inroads in the market.
Through out the history of the 20th Century, whenever the military or law enforcement needed shotguns, most any available gun would do so virtually all of them have seen service at one time or another.
WRONG!
The 500 did not “fail” at anything. In fact the U.S. bought many thousands of 500s and they are still used plenty. The 590 is not a “beefed up” 500 it has a different barrel assembly and some have a bayonet lug. The 590A1 IS beefed up by request from Naval personnel for durability requirements aboard ship.
All three models are used by the military. None are failures.
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