ol' scratch
Member
I have owned my Kimber Custom II for over a year and about 1300 rounds. I have had no problems with MIM. Also, I have a Rock Island with MIM, no problems.
MIM Parts Breakage
- Thread starter BlayGlock
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1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Yep. The thing about machining steel is that any sharp corner...regardless of whether it's created by a plunging cut with a drill or a side cut with an end mill...creates stress risers, and stress risers are breeding grounds for cracks. Impact is an efficient method for bring on stress cracks. Sometimes the crack isn't evdent because it's below the surface, and a part that looks fine one minute can fail the next when it finally does surface.
mljdeckard
Member
Hissoldier,
How much is "A Lot"? I paid $630 NIB for my Custom II, and I have never had a problem, it's the best handgun I have ever owned, including some I paid a lot more for.
How much is "A Lot"? I paid $630 NIB for my Custom II, and I have never had a problem, it's the best handgun I have ever owned, including some I paid a lot more for.
xXxplosive
Member
So just when did Colt start using MIM parts....? I wouldn't think my Pre 80's would have them. Also how were the parts made before they started using Injection Molding.....Machined, Stamped, etc....?
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
xXx...The first ones that I noticed were in the early 1991A1 models. I also noticed that some had machined parts and others with close serial numbers were MIM for the same parts...so that was probably the approximate transition time. No pre-80 Colts that I've ever seen had any MIM.
xXxplosive
Member
Thanks Tuner..............but, what if you have to order replacement parts today from Colt....what should someone expect to receive...?
I wouldn't want a cast / injection molded part as a replacement in one of my 1911's...............No Thanks.
I wouldn't want a cast / injection molded part as a replacement in one of my 1911's...............No Thanks.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Depends on what you order. Sear and disconnect will be MIM. Hammer, slidestop, bushing, etc. are machined steel. Extractor is spring steel, as it should be...and they're very good. The price reflects it. I think the plunger tube is MIM. Steel ejector. I believe the mag catch is cast. There's a list somewhere that names Colt's MIM and steel parts. Couldn't say where it is, though.
HisSoldier
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I paid $1250 for my Team Match II. It's not a bad pistol, but it would be better if it had machined from bar, or machined from forged, or investment cast parts in my opinion.
In my hierarchy of quality parts (All else being the same, appearance, tolerances, etc.) I'll take;
1. Machined from forgings.
2. Machined from barstock.
3. Investment cast.
4. MIM.
Well, actually I won't personally accept MIM for my weapons, it's based as much on my opinion of ethics of the modern American manufacturer than anything else. If it could be proven that an MIM part worked as well I would still not accept it. Your opinion and purchase decisions may vary.
mljdeckard
Member
I just want it to work. And it does.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
HisSoldier, I can understand the sentiment...but most modern guns have some MIM in them. Some...like Kimber...have a lot. If the stuff is made of good material with a sharp eye on quality control during the manufacturing process, it can be quite good. The prices would be out the roof without it. Bottom line...Love it or hate it. It's here to stay.
45Auto...Colt did a very short run of MIM extractors before throwing in the towel. I first saw one in Y2K on a NRM Government Model, and I've only seen a half-dozen since then that had MIM extractors. Yours may not have one. The next time you pull it for cleaning, look at the butt-end at 6 O'Clock. If it has a rectangular indentation, it's MIM. If it doesn't...it's machined.
45Auto...Colt did a very short run of MIM extractors before throwing in the towel. I first saw one in Y2K on a NRM Government Model, and I've only seen a half-dozen since then that had MIM extractors. Yours may not have one. The next time you pull it for cleaning, look at the butt-end at 6 O'Clock. If it has a rectangular indentation, it's MIM. If it doesn't...it's machined.
Hi Tuner,
It does have the rectangular indentation. I was surprised since I assumed it was machined. "Somewhere" on the net, there is a picture of both and that's what "alerted" me...so to speak.
I have to assume that the MIM extractors varied in quality, or inconsistent, since mine works great.
It does have the rectangular indentation. I was surprised since I assumed it was machined. "Somewhere" on the net, there is a picture of both and that's what "alerted" me...so to speak.
I have to assume that the MIM extractors varied in quality, or inconsistent, since mine works great.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
They probably do, but the magazine has a lot to do with how well they hold up. When I saw the first one in a NRM Colt, I decided to run a little test to see how well it would do.
I did my SOP for extractor setup, and only used 7-round magazines with the standard design follower-with-a-speed-bump that prevents last round jump and push-feed. Shot the gun hard for a little over 10,000 rounds before it finally let go. Not too bad, all things considered. Assuming proper magazines, the average buyer would never likely see one break.
Spinnerblade
Member
I'm surprised there's no pics in this thread.
This ambi safety broke with less than 1500 rounds through it.
Its a Colt LW Commander a couple of years old, purchased new.It broke a couple of weeks ago.Patrick
[/IMG]
This ambi safety broke with less than 1500 rounds through it.
Its a Colt LW Commander a couple of years old, purchased new.It broke a couple of weeks ago.Patrick
FullEffect1911
Member
As a disclaimer, I am not trying to defend Kimber per se, but keep this in mind.
Hypothetically speaking:
If Kimber had a 1% failure rate of mim parts, 1% of 60,000 pistols is 600 broken parts.
If Colt had a 3% failure rate of mim parts, 3% of 10,000 pistols is 300 broken parts
These are not exact production numbers, but it does illustrate that with such huge production numbers you can see more quantity of broken parts even though the quality "may" be superior.
Beauty of the 1911 is that if it breaks, you can replace the parts with relative ease.
I say shoot up more ammo and worry about MIM only if you have to. (and use good mags and extractors
)
Hypothetically speaking:
If Kimber had a 1% failure rate of mim parts, 1% of 60,000 pistols is 600 broken parts.
If Colt had a 3% failure rate of mim parts, 3% of 10,000 pistols is 300 broken parts
These are not exact production numbers, but it does illustrate that with such huge production numbers you can see more quantity of broken parts even though the quality "may" be superior.
Beauty of the 1911 is that if it breaks, you can replace the parts with relative ease.
I say shoot up more ammo and worry about MIM only if you have to. (and use good mags and extractors
)xXxplosive
Member
Wow..............look at that poor casting, are those voids in the metal I see there? Nah............I will ask before I buy any new parts fro my Pre 80's pistols. Don't want that junk.
Those numbers would look great to a bean counter, but not to those within the "unlucky 600" who were carrying or using the pistol as a duty or personal weapon. Given the names they attach to their products, Kimber is selling them as weapons. Any part can fail, but those that stake their lives - and sometimes the lives of others - on parts that can be predicted to fail because of lacking quality control measures - are being sort of foolish. It should always be remembered that the main motive behind MIM parts in the firearms industry was not equal or higher quality, but cost savings for the manufacturer.
mljdeckard
Member
I trust my life to mine every day, and if I were allowed, I would carry it to war tomorrow.
EVERY mechanical device breaks eventually. You never like it when it's your turn. The question is if it is more or less likely in a given brand, and I cannot see at all that it is here.
EVERY mechanical device breaks eventually. You never like it when it's your turn. The question is if it is more or less likely in a given brand, and I cannot see at all that it is here.
to those who have seen or experienced safeties breaking--do you think there's any correlation with the shooter resting the shooting thumb on the safety while shooting?
@xxxplosive: back some time ago, for a brief while, i thought mim meant "made in mexico." whoops :O
@xxxplosive: back some time ago, for a brief while, i thought mim meant "made in mexico." whoops :O
FullEffect1911
Member
Old Fuff, I see where you are coming from and while I would love to see old time hand fitting and gunsmithing techniques apply to every American made firearm produced today, it just isn't the world we currently live in. There is to much foreign competition who can afford to pay their labor a paltry sum and sell a product cheap. With that said there is no excuse for poor quality control, doing it right can save a trip back and save money.
We have to compete with technology and efficiency to maintain a competitive price point. For those of us who want to have those old fashion beautiful firearms, we can get them too, but the price goes to about double or more.
While I also feel it is unwise to compromise on a defensive pistol, there comes a point where one has to be realistic about price, performance and the odds of a part failing in potential life threatening situation.
If I had the money I'd own top of the line or old workhorse 1911's and would probably love them.
Well I agree with you up to a point, but...
For one thing I have seen older 1911 pistols go begging on the auctions because of cosmetic rather then mechanical reasons, for between $600 to $1,000. I've posted some hints - and there hasn't been any reaction. Of course these pistols were not loaded with the currently favored gadgets.
Modern technology doesn't always work well with older models, such as the 1911 platform; but they work fine with newer designs that were set-up to use MIM (or whatever) parts in the first place. Glock, Beretta, H&K, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, etc. are examples that offer satisfactory and reliable "modern technology" handguns. In my view someone who is unwilling to buy one of the less expensive older Colt or USGI 1911 pistols, or is understandably unable or unwilling to spend what it takes to buy or set-up a new one by replacing questionable parts, should consider the products made by any of the above mentioned makers.
Right now some buyers seem to want the old-time guns for old-time prices, and that ain't going to happen.
For one thing I have seen older 1911 pistols go begging on the auctions because of cosmetic rather then mechanical reasons, for between $600 to $1,000. I've posted some hints - and there hasn't been any reaction. Of course these pistols were not loaded with the currently favored gadgets.
Modern technology doesn't always work well with older models, such as the 1911 platform; but they work fine with newer designs that were set-up to use MIM (or whatever) parts in the first place. Glock, Beretta, H&K, Ruger, Smith & Wesson, etc. are examples that offer satisfactory and reliable "modern technology" handguns. In my view someone who is unwilling to buy one of the less expensive older Colt or USGI 1911 pistols, or is understandably unable or unwilling to spend what it takes to buy or set-up a new one by replacing questionable parts, should consider the products made by any of the above mentioned makers.
Right now some buyers seem to want the old-time guns for old-time prices, and that ain't going to happen.
1911Tuner
Moderator Emeritus
Wouldn't we all...until we have to shell out about 2 large for a no-frills pistol. Of course, drop-in part replacement was born because of the revamped specs and dimensions on the WW2 era USGI pistols and the standardized gauges used to select-fit the parts, both during manufacture and unit armorer-level repair...but that's another story.
And, now you're starting to understand why the older pistols and revolvers command such a premium...and why I like those old ugly, diamond-in-the-rough Norincos. Nary a casting or an MIM part to be found in'em. Everything is machined steel, right down to the plunger tube. The springs leave a little to be desired, but that's easy to remedy. Some of the early ones had vertical barrel engagement issues...which was a little more involved to correct...but a piece of cake for an experienced wrench. The later ones were generally good to go. A little fluff and polish here and there...a good barrel...and you'll probably go broke tryin' to buy enough ammo to break one.
Ugly, to be sure...but as tough as pig iron.
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