MIM parts?

[JDBoardman]

Fan blades are not turbine blades. The fan on the CF-6 engine, like all modern high bypass engines, drives an enormous volume of air and is the primary source of thrust for the engine (on commercial aircraft; military engines still provide the thrust from ejected combustion gases). The turbine is driven by the combustion products and provides the power to drive the compressor and the fan. The fan is not subject to the operating temperatures of the turbine blades and is MUCH larger in diameter.

Required revolver content: Smith & Wesson's precision forging shop makes several of the small parts we use in our F-119/F-135 engine control system.

 

[Guillermo]

Required revolver content:

good stuff

 

[huntsman]

The turbine is driven by the combustion products and provides the power to drive the compressor and the fan. The fan is not subject to the operating temperatures of the turbine blades and is MUCH larger in diameter.

all were forged both fan and vane they just used different materials, but this was 25 years ago pre S&W MIM I guess.

 

[1911Tuner]

MIM...Love it or hate it...it's here to stay. Might as well accept that.

 

[Guillermo]

MIM...Love it or hate it...it's here to stay

It is not MIM that any informed person hates but rather the way that Smith produces them.

But your point is true. They are here to stay. As long as Smith makes a profit they will keep putting out crap.

 

[psyshack]

Guillermo:

Where is this crap you speak of. It's not in my 686+. Nor is it found in my wife's 60 Pro.

 

[Old Fuff]

MIM...Love it or hate it...it's here to stay. Might as well accept that.

Of course they are, but I only have to accept them when I choose to. Fortunately, for the amount of time I'll still be around there are plenty of other (obviously older) options.

And in spite of what Obama says, I don't plan to buy an electric car either.

 

[Guillermo]

I only have to accept them when I choose to

Yupper

until they do MIM right they can keep their trash...and their electric cars too.

 

[WebHobbit]

I for one will NOT be buying ANY S&W revolvers with the stupid lock/hole in the side plate. I have a 686-4 that I love but it's a model before MIM and before the silly lock.

Anymore only Ruger gets my new revolver money. I just got a new SP101 (my 2nd) and a new (March 2011 fired casing) .45 Colt Bisley Blackhawk (stainless steel, 5.5 inch barrel). Neither gun has any sort of dumb-ass internal lock. I suppose Ruger's casting is a sort of "MIM" like tech but if so I like to think of it as MIM done right.

Smith used to make great revolvers and like others have pointed out they are still readily available.

 

[Leaky Waders]

"Anymore only Ruger gets my new revolver money. I just got a new SP101 (my 2nd) and a new (March 2011 fired casing) .45 Colt Bisley Blackhawk (stainless steel, 5.5 inch barrel). Neither gun has any sort of dumb-ass internal lock."

Take the grips off and look for the lock....

 

[WebHobbit]

I have...nothing there

I would have noticed when I put on my Hogues. I'm about to clean the gun right now and I can tell you there is no lock. I don't think Ruger puts the lock on ANY SP101 models. I think it's on that ugly ass LCR thing though. And I have tried some 3rd party grip panels on that Bisley and it doesn't have the lock either although the manual mentions it.

 

[Leaky Waders]

http://rugerforum.net/ruger-single-action/26189-blackhawk-internal-lock-exploded-view.html

 

[WebHobbit]

Yeah...I don't have anything like that on my Rugers. It's looks just like the spring/mechanism of my older SP101 bought about 10 years ago.

They don't put the lock on all their guns.

 

[dhfenno]

So I'm confused...again...
If I have a MIM gun is it possible for the same gunsmith applying the same technique to make it as smooth as a forged gun w/o sacrificing structural integrity of any part???

 

[Old Fuff]

Yes and no. a MIM part is made up of tiny metal particals, held together with a binder. (Think of a gravel/cement mix). A part made from bar stock, investment casting, or a forging is 100% metal without any binder. In my experience, MIM parts don't polish well, but they will smooth out by burnishing as they rub together under spring or other pressure.

Therefore a simple way to smooth a new action is simply dry fire the gun 1000 time or so, while being sure to use quality snap-caps in the chambers. This will cost you nothing except perhaps for the snap-caps, and it won't void anybody's warrantee.

If you are going to change out any springs (not recommended by me in most cases) do the dry firing before you change the springs.

 

[buck460XVR]

I for one will NOT be buying ANY S&W revolvers with the stupid lock/hole in the side plate. I have a 686-4 that I love but it's a model before MIM and before the silly lock.

Anymore only Ruger gets my new revolver money. I just got a new SP101

..odds are your new SP101 has a MIM trigger. Not that's there's anything wrong with it. Just sayin'.

I had a 686-4 also. Gave it to my youngest son for his 18th birthday. Replaced it with a new Talo 5'' 686. I see no discernible difference between them in fit and finish. I don't notice the IL hole any more than the billboards on my Rugers. The trigger is slightly better in the 686-4 but I assume that's the difference between 5000 rounds and 100.

I kinda feel sorry for those here that feel the need to bash other folk's choices in guns to validate their own......but not much.

 

[WebHobbit]

On my new Bisley -Ruger moved the billboard BS to the UNDERSIDE of the barrel. The ejector rod housing even blocks part of it! NICE. You can't see it at all without looking for it now. Big improvement.

 

[918v]

MIM part is made up of tiny metal particals, held together with a binder.

No. The binder used in MIM is burned away during the molding process. It is used to carry the metal into the mold, not to glue the metal together.

 

[Old Fuff]

No. The binder used in MIM is burned away during the molding process. It is used to carry the metal into the mold, not to glue the metal together.

So what holds the metal particles together?

I know, but I want you to tell us…

 

[918v]

Molecular bonds.

 

[Guillermo]

So what holds the metal particles together?

binder

 

[DaisyCutter]

really? twenty years ago (when I last worked in the industry) they were forged from titanium, inconel and monel

100% Incorrect

Compressor (cold section) blades are often titanium.

Turbine (hot section) blades (to which you were referring) are often made from the various nickel/cobalt superalloys like Hastelloy and Inconel (capitalize it because it's a proprietary name)... and the turbine blades were castings... not forged. The geometry and need for complex internal cooling passages made casting the only viable method. And those CAST parts survive in an 1800°F degree environment with ten-of-thousands of pounds of force exerted on them for tens-of thousands of hours.

But ignorant people will argue all day long that a forging is better than a casting. Negative, it all depends on the application.

Nothing is inherently wrong with MIM (or castings).

Not all forgings are equal.

The material and material processing utilized is determined by the application.

The proper alloy cast, may be preferable to the incorrect (or cheaper) alloy that's forged...

and I haven't even started on surface treatments, heat treatments, etc.




Again, nothing is inherently wrong with MIM.


Where I worked, a Fortune 100 aerospace company, we used many parts that were PM (powder metallurgy)... which is similar to MIM.


For the 3rd time, nothing is inherently wrong with MIM.


The only concern is whether the process generates a component with the appropriate mechanical properties to perform the desired function.

Any forging used in place of MIM, isn't going to be ANY stronger than it has to be. No engineer is going to "make it better" just for the hell of it.


FWIW, there are several applications where a coarse random cast grain structure may be MORE FATIGUE or CREEP RESISTANT than the small equiaxed grains of a forging. Most failure modes target the weakest part of the grain structure... which *SURPRISE* is the grain boundaries... and guess what... more & finer grains equal more grain boundaries.... so a forging can be more susceptible to failure in many applications.

This is why aerospace companies started experimenting with single crystal alloys years ago... Why not just eliminate the grain boundaries altogether?


MIM is just a process used to generate a component, and it's utilized when it fits the application.

 

[huntsman]

Turbine (hot section) blades (to which you were referring) are often made from the various nickel/cobalt superalloys like Hastelloy and Inconel (capitalize it because it's a proprietary name)... and the turbine blades were castings... not forged.

maybe I'm incorrect with using turbine fan terminology BUT our Inconel and monel vanes came right out of the forge shop to be guillotined and then machined (broached) then finished and shipped (no casting process)

100% Incorrect


But ignorant people will argue all day long that a forging is better than a casting. Negative, it all depends on the application.

I believed our processes were a trade secret so I'm curious as to how you can state emphatically that I'm wrong were you an employee also?

I never claimed anything about MIM good or bad I just asked a simple question

 

[Leaky Waders]

Smith and Wesson didn't invest in MIM because it made their firearms 'better', they don't sleeve their barrels because they are 'better', they didn't quit pin and recessing revolvers because they made them 'better'...they did it because the final product would be produced 'cheaper'.

I doubt that the aerospace technology and QA is applied to every S and W (or other MIM gun companies' parts). Comparing aerospace mim used by airbus or the space shuttle to low cost gun parts is like comparing the aluminum my license plate is stamped on to the skin of a 767.

So the argument against MIM in gun design isn't necessarily against the technology of MIM...it's against the philosophy of cheapening forged or cast parts that have worked for decades in proven applications to turn more profit.

If the forged part was 26 cents and the MIM part was 52 cents...Smith and Wesson and others would not entertain the idea of using them in the first place.

 

[psyshack]

Has anybody posting up in here done any trigger work on a S&W old or new,,, MIM or Forged?