Minimum Caliber for Self-Defense

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Posted by ugaarguy:
Would you rather have a handgun in .22 LR or no gun at all?

^Straw man alert!

That wasn't what the person who started this thread (OP) asked. He asked what the minimum caliber was that he should use for self-defense, and why.

The folks in the previous posts who've advocated .22LR have done so with qualifications.

Your above statement has been falsified by post #44 of this thread (not to mention that the OP didn't ask about "qualifications", exceptions etc.):

"I would have no problem feeling safe with a .22 auto by my side. 11 shots in 3 or 4 seconds. Some people need to go out and hunt with a .22 to see what they can do."---Posted by ragtopdog in post #44 of this thread.

If injury or other physical issue limits one to a .22 LR or nothing surely the .22 LR handgun beats nothing.

^Straw man alert! NOT what the OP asked. The OP has revealed NO physical limitations, thus your statement isn't relevant.

I don't think anyone in this thread, or even anyone on THR, would ever recommend using .22 LR as a defensive round to someone capable of effectively using a larger caliber handgun.

You've been refuted by post #44 AGAIN.
 
That wasn't what the person who started this thread (OP) asked. He asked what the minimum caliber was that he should use for self-defense, and why.
Conversations evolve, even conversations on online forums. In post 37 Springmom stated a reason one might be limited to .22 LR. Taken in the context of her post and those which followed it, including you knocking the .22 LR in post 42, the comments in post 44 and 45 fit into the context of "with qualifications."
Straw man alert! NOT what the OP asked. The OP has revealed NO physical limitations, thus your statement isn't relevant.
See my comments above.
You've been refuted by post #44 AGAIN.
AGAIN See comments above.
 
Lower felt recoil for a person who isn't very recoil tolerant isn't an intelligent reason?

Prove that the Cheetah has significantly less recoil than a comparably sized 9mm.

I reject your unproven assumption. Even IF your unproven assumption were true, it still does nothing to change the fact that the .380 Cheetah, and ANY .380 for that matter, is inadequate as a primary self-defense sidearm.

I've already posted the unbiased statement of an actual Cheetah owner who substantiates my claim that it isn't suitable as a primary self-defense sidearm.

And since the individual who started this thread never said anything about any physical limitations, your straw man argument is irrelevant and off topic.
 
Prove that the Cheetah has significantly less recoil than a comparably sized 9mm.

I reject your unproven assumption. Even IF your unproven assumption were true, it still does nothing to change the fact that the .380 Cheetah, and ANY .380 for that matter, is inadequate as a primary self-defense sidearm.
Recoil is subjective, and unlike you I've fired a Cheetah. I've also fired my share of similar mid size pistols like the Glock 19 which is very close in size to the Cheetah. The 84 Cheetah was significantly softer shooting than the Glock 19.
I've already posted the unbiased statement of an actual Cheetah owner who substantiates my claim that it isn't suitable as a primary self-defense sidearm.
That's only one person's opinion. Others may have differing opinions. You can infer that I'm biased all you want. I don't even own a Cheetah. My handguns of choice are 1911s in .45 ACP, and S&W K Frames in .38 S&W Special or .357 S&W Magnum.
And since the individual who started this thread never said anything about any physical limitations, your straw man argument is irrelevant and off topic.
Call it a straw man argument all you want. My statement is still relevant in the context of the conversational flow of the thread. Also, I don't see Moderator under your user name.

Perhaps you'd like to answer some of my questions. Have you ever fired a Beretta Cheetah? How do you explain your assertion that 9mm handguns of similar size to the Cheetah are heavier, despite the fact that the Glock 19 (perhaps the most common similarly sized 9mm handgun to the Cheetah) weighs 3 oz less than the Cheetah?
 
"Anything distinctly smaller—such as the .380 Auto pistol caliber, which is literally a "9mm Short"—too often fails to make the cut. I've run across shooting after shooting where the defender shot a violent aggressor with a .380 and did little to immediately stop his depredations. A good hollow point load in 9mm or .38 Special will, historically, end lethal assaults more quickly."

--Massad Ayoob

http://www.backwoodshome.com/articles2/ayoob110.html
....
 
"9mm or .38 Special can be adequate, and their famously light recoil makes them easy for smaller folks to shoot, or folks who are new to the gun and just a little bit intimidated by the whole thing."

--Massad Ayoob

Bingo! The world's leading authority on handguns for law enforcement and civilian self-defense use, establishes the fact that 9mm recoil is "famously light", and are EASY for "smaller folks" and newbies to shoot.

Thus there's absolutely no reason to consider the markedly inferior .380, which Ayoob has established is inadequate for a primary self-defense sidearm.
 
Judging by your above statement, I'm going to have to assume you've never fired a 9mm or .380.

There's almost no difference in felt recoil between the two.

There's also little difference, if any, in the price of comparable quality handguns chambered for those cartridges. Not to mention that .380 ammo is considerably MORE expensive than 9mm ammo.

I've fired somewhere around 10,000 rounds of 9mm in the last couple years. Also thousands of rounds of .45 ACP and 38 Special, and hundreds of rounds of full-power .357 Magnum and .40 S&W. Only maybe 50 rds of .380, as I don't own one myself. I've fired some Kahrs, compact Glocks, and probably a dozen manufacturers' full size handguns.

In short, my experience is that there is a modest difference in felt recoil between .380 and 9mm. Not big, and some guns like the Kahrs moderate recoil enough to pretty much eliminate the difference.

But the point is lost. I was not advocating .380 in particular. I was saying that most people can handle 9mm, but if you can't, a smaller caliber is better than being unarmed.

Judging from your other posts later in the thread, you seem to be far too passionate about this question, which is especially amusing since it's the fodder of endless idle gun-store chatter and range talk. We're trying to give the OP some good advice. I don't think there is any meaningful argument to be "won."
 
recoil difference between 9mm and 380..... depends on which 380 you're using. pocket pistols are very snappy. my bersa has almost no recoil, but an LCP loves to try and jump out of my hands. if someone wants a 380 for the lower recoil, they need to look at the metal framed pistols.

i agree, if you can't handle 9mm, using a smaller caliber is better than a stick.
 
I reject your unproven assumption. Even IF your unproven assumption were true, it still does nothing to change the fact that the .380 Cheetah, and ANY .380 for that matter, is inadequate as a primary self-defense sidearm.

How about we get a .380 and you stand over there, and see how well you do with getting hit with a few .380s....
 
Bingo! The world's leading authority on handguns for law enforcement and civilian self-defense use, establishes the fact that 9mm recoil is "famously light", and are EASY for "smaller folks" and newbies to shoot.

Thus there's absolutely no reason to consider the markedly inferior .380, which Ayoob has established is inadequate for a primary self-defense sidearm.
Regardless of what Ayoob says if you compare 9mm and .380 ACP in equal size and weight locked breech pistols the .380 will have noticeably less felt recoil.

Now answer the question. Defensory, have you ever personally fired a Beretta Cheetah or a CZ-83?
 
"Even with the availability of the Cheetah and CZ-83, there's still no intelligent reason to pack a .380, when one can pack a "micro 9" that's superior in virtually every regard."

The Cheetah fits my hand like a custom job, is 100% reliable, has 1.5 inch groups at 21 feet, good intuitive 1911-style safety, does have lower recoil, has good size and curves for concealment, and holds 13+1. I'd call every single one of them an intelligent reason, and I would hesitate mightily before referring to that weapon as "wimpy."

"an actual Cheetah owner"

Wow, a real one?? In any case, I am an owner of one and I choose it often when I'm selecting a carry for the day. Yes, a 9mm is more powerful and will be a more devastating weapon. The Cheetah is still a fine weapon and, as mentioned, has many qualities which make it a good choice.

You are certainly entitled to your opinion of the .380, and your elimination of it as a viable option. I just don't accept "Massad said" as meaningful support, and don't accept run across shooting after shooting where .380 failed to make the cut as meaningful data, regardless of whether the statement came from an expert. If we had a random, equal sample of incidents - not anecdotes now, not stuff we've "run across" but real data - where .380 was used for defense, and 9mm was used for defense and there was a real statistically significant disparity between the two, that would be something to give pause.
 
gamut summary

The 73 caliber ; twelve gage works well for self defense in shoulder fired weapons.

The 62 cal. ; twenty gage is another good round in that category.

The 40 calibers in handguns have good reputations and histories to them.
Some records indicate that they are only somewhat more effective than the next lower caliber, but you must decide if that extra margin would be good to have.

The 36 cal. i.e. 38 or 357 magnum has a wide variance of effectiveness, but in the magnum category, seems to do as good as it gets.

The last -36 caliber; the 380 is the minimum recommended by consensus.
The historical record for that round from WWII indicates it is the threshold for penetration of the human skull. Spies and assassins generally agreed that lesser rounds were dubious for those purposes.

There is a great record of deaths by the lowly 22 caliber. However that round is ubiquitous. Popular and available most places and there for that record of many deaths may only indicate that there have been many people shot with that one. Many have been wounded with this round who died much later too. And not stated on the records.
 
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Handgun Ammo Stopping Power
All of us have been exposed to the varying theories regarding which type of handgun bullet is best for defensive purposes. Some proponents (Dr. Julian Hatcher) believe that "bigger is better" while the National Institute of Justice performed a "computer man" study a number of years ago which suggested that light and fast bullets achieved the most lethal results.

As more and more data becomes available, theories change. Evan Marshall wrote definitive studies in 1992, 1996 and 2000 after examining the results of thousands of actual shootings. His conclusions came as a result of actual shootings and not from firing bullets into wet newspaper, gelatin or some other artificial medium.

His data is based on "one shot stops". This is defined as: 1. a single hit to anywhere on the body not counting the head, neck or extremity shot: 2. when a subject stops shooting or striking blows if that was what he was doing and 3. runs no more than 10 feet before collapsing. In other words, Marshall’s studies examine what happens in the first few seconds after a shooting.

In the past decade, major advances have been made in bullet design which adds to the lethality of the projectile. Every major US bullet manufacturer has their own proprietary projective which they claim is best for the job at hand. New calibers such as the 357 SIG have appeared on the scene while more data has been accumulated on relatively new bullets such as the 40 Smith & Wesson. Marshall’s newest study takes these events into consideration.

32 ACP - Most of the smaller caliber firearms such as this caliber and the .380 ACP are carried as "back-up" guns by law enforcement thus the increase in data from actual police shootings. The CorBon 62 gr. JHP round was involved in 17 shootings with 11 one shot stops which achieved a 65% rating followed closely by the Winchester 60 grain Silvertip which was fired 162 times and caused 104 stops for a 64% rating. The Federal 65 grain Hydra-Shok and the CCI 60 grain Gold Dot achieved one shot stops 63% and 60% of the time.

380 ACP - The top rounds in this category were the Federal 90 grain Hydra-Shok and the CorBon 90 grain JHP+P which both rated a 70% one shot stop rating. While Federal 90 grain FMJ ammo was used in a whopping 245 shootings, it only achieved 55% one shot stops.

38 Special - With the introduction of semi-auto pistols, this caliber was relegated to secondary status. This data is from 2 and 3 inch revolvers which limit muzzle velocity & therefore results are less than other comparable calibers. Both the Winchester and Federal 158 grain LHP+P offerings were involved in 158 shootings with the Winchester round making 121 single shot stops for a 68% rating and the Federal loading making 120 one shot stops for a 67% rating. Most all of the 16 loadings examined fell in the 60 percent range with the Federal 125 grain Nyclad LHP+P round earning a 61% rating. It’s clear than the long-used 158 grain lead hollowpoint pushed to +P pressures is the best round for this caliber.

357 Magnum - Once the king of law enforcement handguns, this caliber has also been replaced by large capacity auto-pistols. The data collected for this caliber came from 2 and 3 inch revolvers, not the longer barreled type. The top round was the Remington 124 grain JHP followed by the same loading by Federal. Both loads achieved a 91% one hit stop rating. Most other loads ranked in the 80% area with the Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shok achieving a 78% rating.

357 SIG - This is the most current law enforcement cartridge and therefore, shooting data is limited. The top rated cartridges were the Remington and Federal 125 grain JHPs. Both were rated at 91% one shot stops. Of the 9 loads evaluated, the poorest was the Federal 158 grain Hydra-Shok which was involved in 41 shootings with 32 one shot stops for a 78% rating.

9mm - This was the first semiauto pistol to be used extensively by police agencies and replaced the 38 Special and 357 Magnum round. Early loadings of the 147 grain round caused major stopping problems however current 147 grain designs are vastly superior. Clearly the best 9mm loads are those driven to +P+ pressures. Of the 20 loadings evaluated, the top load was the Federal 115 grain JHP +P+ involved in 209 shootings with 190 one shot stops for a 91% rating. The Winchester 115 grain JHP +P+ and 127 grain Ranger SXT +P+ both had 90% one shot stops. All five loads driven to +P+ pressures ranked in the top 5 followed by all bullets loaded to +P pressures. Rounds manufactured to standard pressure ratings comprised the bottom 12 loadings in the study.

40 S&W - This caliber has become extremely popular with law enforcement agencies due to the perceived deficiencies of the 9mm round. All manufacturers have at least 2 loadings of this caliber and it has served very well. The Remington 165 grain Golden Saber was used in 311 shootings and made 292 one shot stops for a 94% rating followed closely by the CCI 165 and 155 grain loadings and the Federal 155 grain Hydra-Shok bullet. These 3 loads made 93% one shot stops. Other manufacturers loads in the 90% range were the Federal 155 grain JHP and the CorBon 135 and 150 grain JHP bullets. Thirteen other loadings were evaluated with the poorest being the Winchester 180 grain FMJ that was involved in 134 encounters and made 95 (71%) one shot stops.

45 ACP - This caliber has been around for almost 100 years and is still the top rated round. More police agencies are using this round due to its proven stopping ability. The large diameter, heavy bullet is the basis for the "momentum" theory of stopping power however actual results in shootings show a mix of "light and fast" and "slow and heavy" rounds. The Remington 185 grain Golden Saber was involved in 148 shootings and caused 142 one shot stops for a 96% rating followed closely by the Federal 230 grain Hydra-Shok which caused 200 one shot stops in 211 shootings for a 95% rating. Eight of the 16 loadings examined rated above 90% one shot stops while 5 others rated in the 80s. The poorest stoppers were the Remington, Federal and Winchester 230 grain FMJ rounds which achieved 62% one shot stops.

It’s difficult to say that one type of bullet is best for all calibers and, in fact, these study results show that the best results come from a mix of heavy to light bullets which defy most theories. It is clear however that some loadings are much better than others and the decision is ours with respect to which we choose.

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http://www.abaris.net/info/ballistics/handgun-stopping-power.htm
 
His data is based on "one shot stops". This is defined as: 1. a single hit to anywhere on the body not counting the head, neck or extremity shot: 2. when a subject stops shooting or striking blows if that was what he was doing and 3. runs no more than 10 feet before collapsing. In other words, Marshall’s studies examine what happens in the first few seconds after a shooting.
the problem with marshall's stats is if a second shot is fired the data is not used.
 
Defensory said:
People are fooling themselves if they think a .22LR is going to reliably stop determined and/or armed aggressors, especially if they're on drugs and/or alcohol.

I agree.

I'd also say that people are fooling themselves if they think any handgun caliber is going to reliably stop determined and/or armed aggressors, especially if they're on drugs and/or alcohol.
 
Evan Marshall wrote definitive studies in 1992, 1996 and 2000 after examining the results of thousands of actual shootings. His conclusions came as a result of actual shootings and not from firing bullets into wet newspaper, gelatin or some other artificial medium.
No he didn't. His data and methodology have been proven to be flawed, and even fabricated in many cases. Marshall & Sanow were debunked years ago.
 
Perfect Pocket Protection

The abbreviated Kahr 9mm PM9 could render most .380 autos obsolete.

"Enter the PM9, a concealed-carry pistol for the millennium. It fires any kind of 9mm Luger ammo, remains simple to operate, fits in a 5 1/2 x 4-inch box and weighs 16.9 ounces empty. Kahr's new pistol is smaller than any contemporary pocket auto of serious power. Some of the popular .25s and .32s are smaller than the PM9, but they're not adequately powerful for defensive applications. There are also plenty of comparable-sized .380 autos that are easily miniaturized because of their blowback systems. But in my view, .380s are not even marginally powerful for personal defense, as some contend. By virtue of its power and small size, the PM9 virtually obsoletes the pocket .380s."

"Among reliable guns of adequate stopping power, this is the smallest and lightest."


http://www.gunsandammomag.com/ga_handguns/perfect_pocket_protection/index.html
 
The Beretta Cheetah is a BRICK! :what:

I've always been told by .380 fanboys that the PRIMARY ADVANTAGE of owning a .380 is the "diminutive" size, that makes it "so much smaller and more concealable than those bulky 9mm's."

Boy, they were sure BSing me! That Cheetah is a TANK! :p

Beretta Cheetah:

Caliber----------.380 ACP (Proven "weak sister" round that was abandoned decades ago by European law enforcement agencies, when the "new age" of international terrorism and high crime rates made them realize they needed to upgrade to a cartridge of adequate power like the 9mm.)
Overall length---6.8"
Overall height---4.8"
Barrel length----3.8"
Overall width----1.4"
Unloaded weight---23.3 oz

Kahr PM9

Caliber----------9mm (World's most popular military, law enforcement & civilian pistol cartridge)
Overall length---5.3"
Overall height---4.0"
Barrel length----3.0"
Overall width----1.26"
Unloaded weight---15.9 oz
 
Thanks for the post MikeSr.

What I'm getting from this is that a .32 acp loaded with silvertips is almost as good as a 38 special and comparable to 9x17. I would assume that my 9x18 hornady's would be a little better...none of which are quite as good (one shot stop wise) as 9x19.

I have not seen much that puts .380 far ahead of .32...which is a ball to shoot. The first (and only) centerfire pistol that my wife shot was a 9x18 and she informed me that she never wanted to shoot (a centerfire) again. The .22 was OK but the 9mm Makarov was too much. I wish I had given her my .32 instead (didn't have it along that trip).
 
His data is based on "one shot stops". This is defined as: 1. a single hit to anywhere on the body not counting the head, neck or extremity shot: 2. when a subject stops shooting or striking blows if that was what he was doing and 3. runs no more than 10 feet before collapsing. In other words, Marshall’s studies examine what happens in the first few seconds after a shooting.

the problem with marshall's stats is if a second shot is fired the data is not used.

If a second shot HITS the target, the shooting must be discarded because it is impossible to determine how much 'stoppage' was caused by each bullet.
This is the statistically correct way to do this.
 
When you boil down all the vehment argueing and quotes from the gun magazine writers, it all depends on the shooter in question. The person holding the gun is the most important variable. How good are they with what they are using?

You can argue the question till the cows come home, but people are too variable to make statements of what is best. Soon as you get away from a center fire .30 caliber rifle or 12 gauge shotgun, it's a crap shoot. Almost all handguns rounds do not produce enough power to make sure of the mythical one shop stop that the gun writers are so fond of quoting as biblical scripture. Especially the small sub size pocket guns like Kahr's and other short barrel guns. 38 special, 9mm, even .357 have failed to produce "one shot stops."

Use whatever you LIKE because if you shoot it alot because you like it, your going to be a better shot. Thats the end. The person who is better with what they have, than the punk gangbanger trying to rob them is going to come out on top. Think of it this way; who would walk away, Bill Jordan with a Ruger .22 target pistol, or some street punk with a borrowed 9mm?

Run what ya brung and be good with it.

These threads that break down into arguements of yes it is, no its not... are senseless.
 
A basic question and a basic answer

a 36 cap and ball revolver. This has killed many a person before metalic cartridges were ever around.
 
No he didn't. His data and methodology have been proven to be flawed, and even fabricated in many cases. Marshall & Sanow were debunked years ago.

Debunked by whom? I'd like to read this. I'm an engineer; Marshall's methodology appears correct - it's exactly how I would perform such a study. I can't comment on the data as I have not reviewed it.

It would probably be worth doing sub-studies, ie comparing shooter vs shootee. (One would expect a cartridge sold only to police marksmen to have a higher one shot stop rate than an identical cartridge sold only to pimps).
 
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