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minimum legal overall length of a rifle?

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J

john l

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What is the minimum overall legal length of a rifle?
......would like to cut down a 22 stock for a child shooter and still be within the law.

thanks,
john l
 
Here's what the law says:
(8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or
more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made
from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if
such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than
twenty-six inches.
Click to expand...
ATF says that means that all rifles have to have an overall length at least 26".
 
This is a tad off topic but i wonder what the size is on those little tiny childrens rifles. The only maker I can think of right now is chipmunk although there are a few others out there. They sure seem tiny.
 
As Kharn recommended, make the stock extendable. The overall length is measured with the stock fully extended, so you can adjust it down to whatever length you need to fit the child.
 
Thanks, guys.
26" for legal minimum length, and so I am well within the bounds.
john l
 
Have these rules changed at all and can anyone provide a link to the current rules? I'm having trouble bringing anything relevant up on a search.

This rifle would be barely legal if you DID NOT apply the requirement that the stock be fully extended and unfolded
 
Further, if the rifle can still be fired with the stock folded, the 26" length still applies.

rcmodel
 
Ahhhh ... that is good to know and a very important caveat to the previous information!

Thanks RCModel.
 
Indiana ... I think I'm good.

Is there another state where this would be illegal based on length alone ... as opposed to simply being illegal because of an AWB?
 
This rifle would be barely legal if you DID NOT apply the requirement that the stock be fully extended and unfolded
Click to expand...

But it is legal. That the overall length is 26.25" is not a coincidence :)
 
There are exceptions, that I don't fully understand.

The M1-A1 carbine is one. (25.4" folded) The BATF excepted it years ago.

Another is the Kel-Tec SU-16C (25.5" folded)

Both can be fired folded.

rcmodel
 
You have that right TexasRifleman!

I suppose my initial inquiry was about whether or not the measurement had to be done with the stock extended and unfolded. Like you said, it's a moot point since it is still over 26" at it's shortest.

The question now for me is finding a definitive link to the rule/regulation/law that establishes 26" as the minimum. This comes pretty close. I was asking since this online reviewer feels that 30" is the minimum. Nalioth raised a good point that I failed to take into account; the reviewer might be referencing his own state or local ordinances.

RCModel ... those little exceptions and nuances by the ATF are what would drive me nuts. How did you know that those two weapons are exempted? That is why I am still looking for chapter and verse (still reading the ATF PDF files at this time).
 
Well, I know because I have had an M1-A1 for about 45 years, and at the time I got it, I found out there was an exception to the rule made for them back in the 1950's.
Don't remember how I found that out.

Kel-Tec lists the OAL folded length of the SU-16C on their website. They wouldn't be selling it if it didn't comply.

rcmodel
 
A short barreled rifle is defined in the US Code, Title 18, Part I, Chapter, Sec. 921.

(8) The term ''short-barreled rifle'' means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen
inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or
otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
Click to expand...

Notice this doesn't say anything about whether or not it can fire while folded. That is an ATF interpretation that, even from them, gets fuzzy.

Whether or not you'll hang in court remains to be seen I suppose, like many other ATF "rulings".

Here is an interesting opinion from the Michigan Attorney General as it regards those rifles that have at least a 16 inch barrel but are less than 26 inches when folded AND are still operable.

http://www.ag.state.mi.us/opinion/datafiles/1980s/op06280.htm

As in the case of the Kel Tec above, the interpretation here takes into account the portion of US Code that says "whether by alteration, modification, or
otherwise". Since the Kel Tec is manufactured that way, it is not "altered or modified" so it's not an SBR. It appears from all of this that if the manufacturer made it that way it's fine but if you modify something to end up that way it's an SBR.

The firearms which are referred to in the second question will fall within the definition of a short-barreled rifle or a short-barreled shotgun only if they are considered to have been made from a rifle or shotgun 'by alteration, modification, or otherwise' and are capable of being folded or contracted to less than 26 inches in length.
Click to expand...

So, you could have 2 identical rifles, one from the factory and one modified from a longer version, and one would be perfectly legal and one would not.

Now, that's just Michigan AG's interpretation but it makes as much sense as any other I've seen written down and would explain some of these things, like the Kel Tec, that appear to not meet some definitions ATF has "ruled" over the years. That it meets word for word the US Code and is approved by ATF I think is telling that they are not sure they have a leg to stand on regarding factory made Title I firearms.

Have I mentioned this week that gun laws are stupid?
 
I believe that pretty much matches the ATF rule also.

The "Modified from" is the kicker.

The "Manufactured that way" is the other kicker.

But you notice nobody pushes it very much under the 26" folded rule!

You don't see anyone making 24" or 22" folded & getting away with it do you?

There must be a 1/2" fudge-factor they can get away with, or something.

rcmodel
 
Any rifle with a 16" barrel and a stock is going to have a hard time getting under 26" overall length. It would have to be a bullpup configuration. I am a little curious about the walther bullpup 22 rimfire rifle. It seems to me it might be under 26" overall length. I'll get back to this thread after I research it.
 
You don't see anyone making 24" or 22" folded & getting away with it do you?
Click to expand...

IIRC, the Uzi Carbine is under 26" overall length with the stock folded. Doesn't matter anyway. ATF measures with the stock extended. Here's one of many letters from them stating that fact.

Dear __________________:

This is in reply to your correspondence which was received by the Firearms Technology Branch, Bureau of Alcohol, Tobacco, Firearms and Explosives (ATF), on January 30, 2008. In your letter you inquire about the attachment of a folding stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater.

As background, 27 CFR Sec. 479.11 (Meaning of Terms) states, in part:

The overall length of a weapon made from a shotgun or rifle is the distance between the extreme ends of the weapon measured along a line parallel to the center line of the bore.

Based on this description of overall length and its correct measurement, ATF has taken the position that firearms having folding or collapsible stocks are properly measured for overall length with the stock fully extended.

In the situation you present, the attachment of a folding shoulder stock to a pistol having a barrel length of 16 inches or greater would be lawful as long as the overall length of the resulting firearm is at least 26 inches with the stock fully extended. We caution that, because the configuration you have specified results in the manufacture of a rifle, a subsequent reconfiguration of the firearm to a pistol configuration would result in a weapon made from a rifle, which is a weapon controlled by the National Firearms Act (NFA).

We thank you for your inquiry and trust that the foregoing has been responsive.

Sincerely yours,

John R. Spencer
Chief, Firearms Technology Branch
Click to expand...

http://www.thehighroad.org/showthread.php?t=347669





The question now for me is finding a definitive link to the rule/regulation/law that establishes 26" as the minimum.
Click to expand...


§ 921 Definitions.
(a) As used in this chapter—

(8) The term "short-barreled rifle" means a rifle having one or more barrels less than sixteen inches in length and any weapon made from a rifle (whether by alteration, modification, or otherwise) if such weapon, as modified, has an overall length of less than twenty-six inches.
Click to expand...

http://www.atf.treas.gov/pub/fire-explo_pub/2005/p53004/index.htm
 
Hkmp5sd points out an interesting change in position, it used to be you could convert a pistol to rifle and back to pistol as many times as you wanted. Now anyone with a carbine kit for their 1911 or Glock is automatically guilty of a felony when they remove the carbine conversion kit and revert their weapon back to its original pistol configuration. :rolleyes:

Kharn
 
Now anyone with a carbine kit for their 1911 or Glock is automatically guilty of a felony when they remove the carbine conversion kit and revert their weapon back to its original pistol configuration.
Click to expand...

Yep, after they lost the Contender case the ATF seems to have gotten their feelings hurt so they are gripping tighter to that "alteration, modification, or otherwise" clause.
 
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